Disneycember! Part 9

(123 votes, average 4.74 out of 5)

The Black Cauldron

The Great Mouse Detective

Oliver and Company

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Comments (227)
  • amw2663  - All my favorites!
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    Great job again Doug. I'm loving all these Disney reviews. RIP Walt Disney
    Makes we wish I hadn't given up all my disney films when I moved into the states.
  • August M.
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    Oh...sorry for your loss.

    Well, here's my take on these movies.

    The Black Cauldron(1985)- This movie would have been MUCH better if Jeffrey Katzenberg(Current Head of Dreamworks Animation, but head of Disney Animation at the time) didn't interfere too much into the production of the movie: Changing the script, taking out many elements to make it kid friendly(Making Taran talk way too much and Gurgi annoying), etc. And even in the final product, the movie was still too dark and violent that Katzenberg edited the movie to barely get a PG rating weeks before its release, and you can notice it: Some scenes are cut out badly, noticeable altered scenes, music skips, and it has a sense of scenes missing(Roughly 10-20 minutes of material). To this day I'm waiting for Disney to released the original, unedited, and uncut PG-13 version of the film(Sadly, the latest DVD release of the film from 2010 is still the censored cut.).

    The Great Mouse Detective(1986)- One of my favorite Disney movies and Sherlock Holmes movies. Vincent Price is awesome as Ratigan, which is no surprise since one of his goals in life was to be in an animated Disney movie. And yes Doug, it was the first Disney movie to use CGI elements. This movie would have been the start of the Renaissance Era if it wasn't for Oliver in Company. Speaking of which...

    Oliver in Company(1988)- Aside from the awesome song “Why Should I Worry,” this movie is just forgettable and bad. Even as a kid I hated this movie. A proper end to the “Make it Like Walt” Era since pretty much summarize most of the movies of the era: Forgettable and bad.

    Oh I can't wait for your take on the Renaissance Era(Little Mermaid-Tarzan) for although many considered it back to form with quality, it was more on merchandising the movies than the actual movies.
  • Valatsar  - @ August M.
    I have really enjoyed hearing your thoughts on these movies as much as Doug's. I actually try and find your comments just to see what you say about the movie.
  • thedoodlemeister  - @ August M. (as well)
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    I do the same! I skip right to your comments first, actually. I usually lurk around on this site but I wanted to let you know how appriciative I am of you as well. :)
  • August M.  - @ thedoodlemeister
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    Thanks!
  • August M.  - @Valatstar
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    Thanks!
  • Steve the Pocket
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    I don't think Disney will ever release a "director's cut" of anything it's ever made, because if there's one thing Disney does not want to do it's admit that anything they ever did was less than perfect. They want people to believe their entire back catalog are masterpieces, and if having an unreleased, superior version floating around would make them look bad. That's why I've always had a bit of a love-hate relationship with them. They might have made a lot of great films over the years, but it's given them an ego the size of the Hindenburg.
  • August M.
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    Well, it could be release under the Walt Disney Treasure line(I heard it's making a comback in 2012) since it's for the Disney Fanatics. For years people had said Disney would have never released it's War-Time cartoons and the ones with racist themes but they were able to release under this line and no parent was complaining about it. I'm just keeeping my fingers cross and hope for it's release.

    PS- Nice Pinkie Pie Pic.
  • AlucardsQuest
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    Oh really? Then ask them about how they feel about Song of the South. Or why they added a new and unnecessary song to Beauty and the Beast on DVD, but are taking it back out for the 3D re-release! Ask about how they altered Roger Rabbit on it's DVD re-release! Better yet ask the new head of Disney animation (and former Pixar founder) John Lasseter how he feels about Disney's direct to video sequels!
  • August M.
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    Song of the South has been petition to be in the Walt Disney Treasure line since the beginning but Michael Eisner( Former head of everything Disney), then Bob Iger(current head of everything Disney) have always said it will be release soon but they just wanted to avoid racist backlash even though the movie has no such thing in it.. As for Roger Rabbit and Beauty and the Beast alterations, those were the directors of the said films decisions, but at least the option of the original cut of Beauty and the Beast is avalable(Unlike Star Wars). And for the Disney Crapquels, Lassenter has mention he hates them and has since halted all the ones that were planned(there hasn't been one since 2007). He only allows spin-offs since they don't basterdize the original films, but sadly the characters do in return(I hate Tinkerbell being able to talk).
  • HanSK  - the damn "Renaissance" era
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    Oh, don't you get me started on the so called Disney Renaissance

    Those movies not only contain everything I ever despised about Disney in scoop-loads, but they are also the main reason for why traditional 2D animation on the big-screen is dead and gone nowadays (unless it's a Japanese import)
    This is the era where Disney became the true Anti-Christ of Western Animation

    So bring it on
  • jz1337
    This makes no sense. The Disney Renaissance brought a huge amount of success to animated movies. Pixar and Disney Movies following the Renaissance were more what put traditional animation on life support. Along with other reasons I'm sure. And Princess and The Frog did quite well for the first Full Disney film for a while. But Disney like everyone else seems to have their Nostalgia for the 90s on overload.
  • Dragon_Nexus
    I'd always kinda suspected Black Cauldron suffered from an editing hack job. It just sort of had that feel to it.

    I kinda liked it as a kid, but I wasn't particularly discerning. I think if I'd watched it as my first time a lot later, I'd see it as pretty bland and forgettable, but the power of nostalgia holds sway over me on it.

    It's always a shame hearing of potentially great movies being butchered in editing. It really feels like a film that's so very different to anything Disney had done up until that point, it felt way more like a folk story rather than a fairy tale and it stood out on those grounds. It's just a shame they didn't go all the way with it.
  • BooRat  - The Black Cauldron
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    I've actually never heard of or seen this one before in my life! !st time I even heard of it was on this site when Nostalgia Chick did a video on Disney Death scenes! And the death of the Horned King sounded and looked bad-ass as he's pull (apart) into Hell!
    I actually think I might like this one if I ever see it! I like weird darkage looking stories!
    This does remind me though of that Disney knockoff sequel to Snow White I keep requesting the Critic to review!

    I got a question why is the image on this video from the Rescuers?!
  • August M.  - Answer to Rescuers Still
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    The video itself had a couple stills from the "Make it Like Walt" Era.
  • AlucardsQuest
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    For the same reason that Bebe's Kids is the image on the Let's Play Commentary of Bart's Nightmare. BlipTV does whatever they want.
  • Dragon_Nexus
    Think the only reason I ever saw The Black Cauldron was because my mum got a pirate copy out to keep my occupied (Our local video store at the time was nothing but pirate copies of damn near every film available. This was in Cyprus pre-EU though, so...)

    It has a level of nostalgia for me, but it was never a *brilliant* film. Like Doug I don't believe it deserves the ire of being the worst Disney film ever, despite the meandering plot, there are worse films they made. I do applaud the studio for trying something new though, it felt a lot more like a folk story than their typical fairy tale stuff.

    It's worth checking out, certainly.
  • Strfox
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    Oh, I remember seeing The Great Mouse Detective when I was little. Don't remember much from it (except the villain) but I def gotta check it out!! Love your reviews, especially when I totally agree with you on Robin Hood! :)
    And the Black Cauldron, it focuses on the flow of the story telling, not much on the charm and magic of what it's showing at the exact moment. Everything's in it is pretty much irrelevant, just things happen and done.
  • Ruby Doomsday
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    I actually really liked The Black Cauldron, but mostly because of the dark animation (and apparently there was some even heavier stuff that got cut, which I would LOVE to see though). I hate that little... Gurgy... or whatever that thing was called, and I hate hate hate that they used that "oh no, he's dead! Nope, not really!" cop out on him that has become such a Disney film cliche. The Horned King and the psychic pig kinda rocked though!
  • August M.  - Black Couldron is Censored
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    You're right, there is an Uncut and Unaltered PG-13 version but Jefferey Katzenberg(Current Head of Dreamworks Animation, but Head of Disney Animation at the time) Had to badly edit out the movie weeks before its release to get a PG rating. Examples of stuff being cut out: Someone melting showing decaying skin and bones(Similar to the end in Raiders of the Lost Ark), the Princess actually goes topless after her dress rips as she hangs on a ledge, and more scenes with the Horned King. In fact, this movie is missing 10-20 minutes of material. Just go see the movie again and look for badly edited scenes, noticeable alterations, and music skips; You'll be surprise at what you find.

    PS-I too am wanting for Disney to released this movie in its original PG-13 cut.
  • BooRat  - The Great Mouse Detective
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    OH MY GOD!!! I loved this one as a kid! This was one of those I wore the VHS tape out on and was so pissed and upset when my mom couldn't get me a new copy!
    I liked the villain and his right hand man (bat)!
    The scene that saddened me or freaked me out most was the scene where Ratigan feeds one of his henchmen(mice) to his "pet" cat for mistakenly calling him a RAT!!! I think I had to cover my eyes as a kid even though it's all shown in shadows on the wall only and reactions of the other characters!

    This is so cewl! Because this brought back so many memories and I went to see Sherlock Holmes A Game of Shadows today and it was freaking awesome! Ratigan is the Moriarty counterpart!
  • TheNitsguy  - The Prydain Chronicles!
    I LOVED the Prydain Chronicles growing up! When I found out that there was a movie of it, and by Disney?! MAN was I ever excited to watch Black Cauldron!

    After watching the movie, however... not so much. Let's just say that Disney didn't do a good job condensing 5 books into 80 minutes...

    As a fan of the books, the movie was definitely a disappointment.
  • TheRandomestOne
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    I loved the books too! I never finished the series, but I really enjoyed the earlier books. I wish they released the full version of the movie. I'm not sure if it would make things all better, but it would be nice to see at least.
  • Mizu Takishima
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    The great mouse detective was one of my first Disney movies! I don't think I saw it in theaters, but I just love love LOVED the villain in that one!

    As I'm older, I actually kind of like the Hero more, but I still love the villain and the way the two play off each other c:

    I liked The Black Cauldron for how dark the movie was at times, but other than that it was kind of meh.

    Oliver & Company is just great. I know its a little gimicky, but I wasn't even born yet when it first came out XD (I was born like 3 months later lol) So I didn't feel manipulated while watching it. (If anything it was like peeking inside the late 80's! Plus I'm such an animal person aksjhlkasdh )
  • BooRat  - Oliver and Company
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    This one I didn't watch when I was really young so it didn't stick with me but I have seen it and yeah I hardly recall what all happens outside that song and the Cheech dog getting shocked while hot-wiring a car! And the totally badass way the villain and his 2 dogs die on the train tracks! Best deaths allowed at the time!
    Actually the only reason I remember this movie is because the trailer for it was on one of the other Disney movies I had as a kid and the trailer was basically only that song scene!
    Dammit that song is in my head again!
  • n4tennis23  - If there is any movie...
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    If there is any movie I loved as a kid, and still love now, its Oliver and Company and this was the review I was looking forward to.

    The depiction of NYC looks awesome, it had a nice pop-culture feel to it and it had great songs. In all honesty, this was a good movie, its just the comparison to the book and the land before time that made it forgettable.

    BTW, once I found out that Doug was doing Disneycember, I watched the movie almost immediately.
  • GameKeeper28
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    The Black Cauldron was one of the last Disney films that I was aware existed. I never saw it in my childhood and I don't see any point in watching it now. I guess Disney was just trying to try darker tone for an animated movie seeing how it's the first animated Disney film to get a PG rating.
    The rumor is that Gurgi was the inspiration for the Movie version of LOtR's Gollum. I wonder if that's true or not.

    Loved the Great Mouse Detective as a kid, and I still do today.

    Oliver and Company was based off Oliver Twist? Well I never saw Oliver Twist, so of course I wouldn't know that.
  • sprezzatura
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    Really? I thought of the Gollum voice right away when I heard him, so I'm not surprised!
  • JehuTron
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    Aw, yes! the 1980s, the pre-Renaissance Disney, it was a dark age indeed.
  • TerminalSanity
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    I think part of the problem with The Black Caldron was like The Jungle book it was adapted from a far deeper, darker, story. I think adapting down a five novel epic to a Disney time-scale and tone just plain gutted the narrative and the characters into bland shells. I mean take the princess for example you actually get the full backstory on why she's virtually only a princess in name only in the books.

    The Great Mouse Detective is just a plain fun Disney movie: an elegantly simple story populated with colorful characters, compellingly animated.

    Oliver and company is well just another one of Disney's meh movies, there's nothing glaring wrong with it, it just doesn't standout in fact it tends to blend with the Aristocats in my memory.
  • onetwistedfrootloop
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    I never saw Black Cauldron, but it's on my list of things I gotta watch. And I LOVE the Great Mouse Detective and Oliver and Company. I watched both of those constantly as a kid. "Why Should I Worry" was my favorite song back then and still is now! XD And I'm pretty sure Dodger was my first movie crush (yes an animated dog was my first movie crush...) Anyway those movies will always have a special place in my heart :)
  • shadrach
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    I for one quite like The Black Cauldron. If nothing else because John Hurt voiced The Horned King.

    Love Oliver and Company as well, but that's mainly out of nostalgic reasons and an irrational amount of love for 80's music. I love the cheesetastic Huey Lewis song in the beginning.
  • Zydrate
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    I thought the Black Cauldron was rather dull when it came to characters, The Horned King being the exception. The animation was spectacular though. The story was alright but nothing great.

    As for the other two movies: Haven't seen The Great Mouse Detective, But I'll give it a look when I get the chance. And I don't really remember seeing Oliver and Company but I think did at one time. Weird.
  • Robert the Kid
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    From what I can tell the reason Oliver and Company was made was just so they could make The Little Mermaid.
  • Keiji
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    Your arguments for the black cauldron I can basically counter(most of them, at least) with one line. : They were trying something new.

    As a kid, I loved that movie, it was darker, slightly more "no hopey" and bleak than most of what Disney does, though definitely not by much, and It really shaped my tastes in movies and show, hell, even music, to this day.

    I would personally call it one of their better movies, myself. One that was sadly overlooked.
  • Swanpride
    The Black Cauldron was the reason we stopped our family tradition to go into the theater around Christmas to catch the actual (or rereleased) Disney movie - you're right, with the exception of the Pig (which is simply cute), all the characters in this movie are annoying. Not a fan of the drawing style either - it looks more fitting for a TV show than a movie, there is no edgieness in it. Even the more scetchy drawn Disney movies had their own distinctive style, this is just bland.

    Basil is suffering from the fact that it was squeezed in between two really bad movies (bad for Disney standarts). I missed it out in the theaters, and I really wish I hadn't (I saw it a couple of years later on video). It's also the only Disney movie from the Dark age about which I can honestly say that the english version is the best - because of Vincent Price, but the voice acting in general is above everything they did during that time. It's also one of the few movies I wish they would make a sequel to (a proper one, not direct to video). Really, this movie is made for a sequel, and it's one of the few which never got one.

    Oliver and Co - for some reason I ended up watching it in theaters, and it convinced me that Disney movies had gone downhill. What a mess. And yeah, I remember the heavy merchandising which came with it too, and I was very annoyed back then about it. I don't even like this one song everybody is raving about - Disney movies have to be timeless, and this movie is anything but that, it's so 80s (and that's not a compliment). The mass of cameos from earlier movies make this whole thing look cheap, even cheaper than Robin Hood (and Robin Hood had the excuse that it actually was cheaply made and they did the best out of the tight budget, with Oliver and Company I was always wondering for what they used the money). And the story is an utter mess - not even the villain is interesting. Really, even the worst Disney movies tend to have an unforgettable villain, but this one (I think it's Sykes, named after the book, but I'm not even sure about that) seems to be more a plot device than a character.

    It's really a good thing that "The little mermaid" is my favorite Fairy Tale, or Disney would have lost me as watcher forever at this point.
  • Soleil
    Next up is The Little Mermaid! We're finally getting to the renaissance, the best decade of animation history when almost all my favorites were made :) I can't wait.
  • plaidman
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    First of all I love Great Mouse Detective, it's one of my favorite movies of all time.

    Funny thing when it comes to The Black Cauldren, the first time I saw it was when it first came out on VHS and my parents checked it out of the video store. First I love the fact that the movie has no songs in it... that I can remember. I also love the fact that it was a much darker movie than the previous movies Disney had done at the time or since. I mean just look how the Horned King dies for goodness sake. The movie even has blood in it! That's right blood! However, I do agree that Gurgi is far too annoying for words and he really brings the movie down. I'm actually surprised that Doug didn't mention the fact that the movie was based on a book series.

    Anyway, I don't really have much to say about Oliver and Company except that I've only seen it about twice in my life and I found myself kinda bored with it until the end where the dogs lick the third rail and the villian kisses the subway.

    Either way Great Mouse Detective... Rocks! Black Cauldren... Rocks! Oliver and Company... meh.
  • Plotspider  - Thank you
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    Thank you. Agree.
  • Kaygeebee
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    I watched "The Black Cauldron" a few years ago and don't even recall recognising it as a Disney movie. I thought it was a Don Bluth movie or something like that.
    When I saw the Disney logo at the end, I thought "Holy shit, this was Disney? Wow, they really fucked up."

    The movie would be somewhat OK if it weren't measured by Disney standards. On its on, it would be a decent film.

    But I can't wait for part 10, the Renaissance of Disney.
  • jalford
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    Princess Eilonwy is a great Disney Princess BECAUSE we don't know anything about her kingdom. They don't have to stick an obligatory nameless prince to show up at the end of the movie to save her.
  • Plotspider  - Totally agree
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    I love her (and misspelled her name). She cracked me up in the books. I loved her throughout, and I loved her in this movie. She was cute, assertive, supportive, and equal to the others. She might be one of my favorite Disney Princesses, actually.
  • JenM
    I love ALL these movies, Black Cauldron is awesome for how dark it is, and Great Mouse Detective is fun and filled with Foe Yay. I knew two girls who knew the songs from Oliver and Company by heart. As a result of knowing them, I now know the songs by heart as well.
  • Trilaanus  - Bad Movie, Great Books
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    The Black Cauldron is one of my earliest film-going memories. I was 4 years old. I remember how much I cried when it looked like ________ had died. Since then I've read the actual books this was based on, The Prydain Chronicles and, yes, it's so sad what they did in this movie. Properly done, the Prydain Chronicles could have movies that would rival Harry Potter or Narnia films.
  • eric.emanwu  - And thus we go from the dregs, to the seeds of ren
    I've been following this series from the beginning, and I have to admit, that what you're doing here is something like an abridged version of what Linkara and Jesuotaku. reviewing something big over many installments, and trying to have some interesting backstory and the like thrown in as well as your thoughts. It's not as detailed mind you, but it's gonna be remembered for a long time.

    Funny enough, the self documentary Waking Sleeping Beauty also names losing to the Care Bears Movie as the great embarrassment of disney. And as I remember it, I thought gurgi was hard to understand, but he also had a certain lovableness that I liked. In fact, aside from the scary Horned King, I actually found Gurgi the best character of the movie. As it stands though, there are much better offerings from disney.

    The Great Mouse detective is a movie a feel a little funny about. It's essentially Sherlock Holmes light, and after watching Guy Richie's version, it's a little less appealing as it stands though TGMD does have lots of things I remember. It captures a neat Holmes/Dawson dynamic, in that Dawson can be shown to be strong as well, though not quite as smart as Basil, and also the things you mention too. Basil was probably disney's 3rd formal anti-hero, and definatly the first to get formal character development, growing to admit he wants Dawson on his team. He's also probably one of the only formally SMART disney heroes in being educated and intuitive rather than streetwise. Probably not until Atlantis do we get a comparable offering (but you'll get to that later. Further, I have to admit that Vincent Price does a superb job capturing this cultured, vicious, scary, interesting villain, which is again great. Also, the ending is great, and if it wasn't for Oliver, I would actually call this the first renaissance piece of disney for its revival in story, villains and seriousness without annoyance. (on a minor note, they did use a few computers in TBC, but GMD formalized it.)

    O+C. I could watch this movie 10 times if only for that song. (you know the one) Also though, I have to admit, sykes is forgettable, but still was pretty menacing when you were in the film. Anyways, we're only one movie away from the great revival which is The Disney Renaissance. See you later for the first of the big 4 who re-birthed Disney, but also doomed it to molds forever!
  • aunt_zelda
    Actually The Black Cauldron was based on a book, part of The Chronicles of Prydain by Lloyd Alexander. The "weird power" of Hen Wen and the titular cauldron are from Welsh mythology.
    The random Princess is a random Princess in the books, too, Disney didn't just throw in a princess because it's Disney. There's more of a point to her in the books, she was a ward in the castle Taran was being held prisoner in by an evil sorceress and she could do some magic, she even freed him from his cell. The thing about the books was that there were all these minor kingdoms and fiefdoms, there were all these "kings" running around who would seem like glorified knights to an audience not familiar with feudal Britain, so Princess Eilonwy not "acting like a princess" makes perfect sense for the world she's living in and is totally in keeping with the books, royalty had to get shit done back then, it wasn't like there was just one princess in the whole country to get pampered and stuff.

    Oh god, Gurgi … he was kinda annoying in the books, his weird mode of speech was like that in the books too. The movie made him way, way worse.

    "The rodent equivalent of Sherlock Holmes"
    ... and the reason many people became furries later in life. Seeing Basil … I can't blame them, and I'm not even furry. (I would go furry for that mouse.)
    Let's be honest here, if it wasn't Basil, it was Miss Kitty and her Victorian strip show in the pub scene.

    God, that fight scene, I still can't watch it, it scares me so much!
  • Elrik Undersn  - To be fair...
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    The Black Cauldron is probably something Disney really should /not/ have tried to do. Not because it was a bad idea, but because it's a movie that was adapted from the second book in a series of 5 books. It tries to pretty well combine the first two stories, and ends up making something that is far inferior to the books. Now the books aren't masterpieces, and in his early years the boy is still as ego-centric and dumb as a post, but as the books progress he /does/ grow up and as he becomes a man you actually start to like him, but as usual, adapting a book to a movie is not always a good idea, or an easy thing, the Black Cauldron is just another example.

    Now the Great Mouse Detective was kind of a fun one too, dark and edgy, but I could see it not being a big hit, it was rather dark for a Disney film, blatantly dark.

    I remember Oliver and Company, it was kind of fun, but I saw it much later on in life so it doesn't stick with me quite as well.. But it holds up okay.
  • veddabredda
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    As a kid I owned the Oliver and Company VHS and I loved it. But then, I was always big on animals.
  • LikaLaruku
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    Hyenas are related to cats, not dogs.

    Yeah, I had the same opinions; Black Cauldron was utterly forgettable, Great Mouse Detective was ballsy, & Oliver & Company was just okay, though it was relatively forgettable too.
  • Zydrate
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    They're actually more related to cats than dogs.
  • BB Shockwave
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    Hyenas are NOT CANINES. See here.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/ wiki/Hyena

    They are closer to felines and mustelids, but are pretty much a separate family of carnivors on their own. They look a bit like canines, yes, but a lot of features, like the short hind legs, set them apart.
  • Skemono
    About the Great Mouse Detective--I remember watching it as a kid and there being a scene discussing Ratigan's backstory. As I recall, he was a very small rat who was bullied / teased by the larger rats, so he instead pretended to be a mouse, since even a very small rat made a very large mouse. Hence why he hated it whenever anyone called him a "rat".

    But when I bought the DVD and watched it, that scene's not in there. And I couldn't find any mention of that scene being deleted, or ever existing. Did I just make that all up, or does anyone else remember that?
  • violinisthamel
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    I remember that too. I don't have the movie on DVD so I can't say that it was deleted but I do remember them mentioning that he hated being called a rat because because of that. Also why he's around a lot of mice and concerning himself with them instead of getting involved with other rats.
  • sprezzatura
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    really??? I'm a HUGE Great Mouse fan and I never heard that! Strange... That makes sense though, and I know the movie's based on a book series- maybe that was a detail in the original books?
  • Skemono
    I never read them, but according to what I've found on the web, in the books Ratigan was, in fact, a mouse. So probably not.
  • Semudara
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    I recently watched the movie on VHS, and that scene is not in it. Either it doesn't exist, or for some reason it was only in the theatrical release.
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