Doug's Top 10 WORST Clichés

(289 votes, average 4.86 out of 5)
Comments (520)
  • Neo Ultra Mike
    Here are my thoughts on the list (first post whoo)

    10. Calling A Women "Girl": He admits this one is more of a peeve since I really don't see it, outside of some superheroines or usually when the villian character is insulting the female protaganisnt. In the later case it's a base insult but it works, but for it to be used on normal women I can understand it being insulting. Truthfully though I think that's more Doug's slight feminist streak more then anything else as I was never really bothered by it, but I can kind of see it being annoying.

    9. "Shakey Cam": Yeah you know the style that became really popular after The Blair Witch Project became big. And then we got Cloverfield overusing it as well. But I think he's more commenting on the movies that just use it to try and make things dramatic when it looks really silly. Once again not a big problem in my mind but I also don't see a whole lot of those kind of movies either.

    8. No Interesting Opening Credits: When a movie just starts with the characters talking and then text on the bottom without doing anything interesting with it. To be fair TV Show can get away with it because most of them (espiecally cartoons) have opening credit sequences that you put in front of the show first to show off the characters/scenarios/ settings etc. With movies though yeah starting off with just text for the most part never works, and just having a normal start isn't interesting as well. Personally the movie that did it the best recently was Spiderman which had great use of visuals and Danny Elfman's score through the webs and in the sequals cases what happened in the last movie to paint a nice picture as the credits role. Personally I think they really should just start the movie without credits since yeah you want to tell people whose starring in the movie and who the director is, but if they really care they'll watch the ending credits. The people who don't care to know others involved don't want to see the main stars either and would leave the film early if they only appeared at the ending credits. Either do something unique with your opening credits or don't bother with them.

    7. Overuse Of CGI: Yeah some of these you can see coming since Nostaliga Critic and Doug have complained about them before in past lists or past reviews. And this one is one he's gone on about, espiecally when the CGI is Poor. I like his point he made here: only do it if it's necessary. Like with CGI and Animated movies who would have no way otherwise of showing the visuals, or in CGI/Life action Hybrids were there are certain things that need to be made with computers. But if you can actually show it in real life, then just show it in real life. And don't bother adding it in with digital effects when people can still do pratical effects. Really I think only video games should actually be able to use body suits for it's actors since they are trying to showcase real...
  • Jachra
    Are you saying there's something wrong with feminism?
  • axlryder
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    No, he's saying Doug having a feminist streak means he makes note of it more than others might. This practice has been dramatically reduced in modern films, which makes it less concrete than the later cliches mentioned. Plus, many other films have portrayed woman calling 20-something men "boy" or slightly older men calling slightly younger men "son" or something, which Doug never noted.

    Seriously though, way to fulfill the stereotype of the jumpy, accusative feminist. I hate modern "feminism" because it often lacks objectivity and creates double standards, even going so far as to imply precedence be given to the female. While feminism once stood primarily for equal rights (kinda), many group's philosophies seem to have transformed into the near antithesis of a chauvinist outlook. Also, seeing as our two sexes are fundamentally different on a physiological level, true "equality" is completely impractical. In order for us to truly be equal, woman and men would have to relinquish their respective gender identities, and then the term feminism would become obsolete. I'm not saying this should happen, but it shows that the concept of feminism is flawed, or it should at least have a better name if it's trying to get across the concept of equality. Maybe, I dunno, equalism?
    In summary
    Equal rights: good
    feminism: bad
    (imo)

    sorry for the tangent, but I really hate it when people act like non-feminists are scumbags or criminals or something (I get it all the time).
  • Tinted
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    You're thinking of misandrists. They're the ones that hate men and want women to be superior. Feminists want equality for everyone and get really sick of the crazies getting the most attention.

    And to put this more on topic. Doug, I love it when you hate things and I love it when you talk about the stuff you like. Having a nice balance between the two is the best way to go. :)
  • axlryder
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    Unfortunately, I'm not talking about the people that explicitly desire for female superiority. I'm talking about feminists who try to impose equal rights for woman in all circumstances while society still invests in the negative stereotypes imposed on males, which results in biased juries, undeserved job placement and skewed perspectives. Though you're right that some of the groups I mentioned are more misandrous than feminist.

    I was actually once accused of assaulting a girl my age, which, of course, I never did; yet people assumed that I did it despite my having a reputation as a nice guy. The feminist mothers in the area were all up in arms saying, in so many words, that I was scum. I was treated as guilty until proven innocent simply because I was a man, but if the tables were turned no one would have believed that girl assaulted me. Honestly, if there wasn't solid evidence proving my innocence, I might have been convicted on bias alone. Even after that, people still looked at me like I was scum. Note that this was treatment I got from both men and woman.

    Now that story is 100% fictional, but it does happen every day, all over America, and I'm sure you didn't think it was the least bit far-fetched when reading it either. Again, equal rights are awesome, and woman still get a lot of unfair treatment (way more than men), but the very stigma and views attached to feminism have already caused counter-productivity and bias to form on both sides of the fence. While it is possible that misandry infected feminism which then infected the the general populous in a smaller amount, there still needs to be a bridge for one extreme to reach the middle. and I will always consider "feminism" a terrible name for an equal rights movement. Black people sure as hell don't call it "Blackism".
  • mrrubino
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    Yes yes, we get it. Feminism bad. Reverse sexism. Poor persecuted white males. Equality is impossible and "forcing" it goes against the natural inferiority of women. Hey, don't look at me like that. I'm talkin simple science!

    For bonus points, let's play the etymology game and try to make a word not mean what it means, because that's how debate works. If we scrounge, perhaps we can find someone to explain the super secret true meaning of homophobic! ("It means fear of sameness! From the Greek root words! Also, I'm not one. Stop saying I am.")

    This ground has been covered so many times.
  • Tinted
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    Could we not? Women have it bad in a lot of areas and men have it bad in a lot of areas (like custody battles or male rape/abuse being seen as hilarious). It's not feminism to blame and people who think that are ridiculous; it's sexism that hurts everyone.
  • mrrubino
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    But insert painfully stupid semantics game here and shamelessly exaggerated anecdotes here! And maybe something about affirmative action, because why not!

    It's like when someone points out all those "frivolous lawsuit" stories are "false as Hell", as the Bard might say. The person inevitably just drools for a bit and screams DUNT MATTER! THIS STUFF HAPPENS ALL TEH TIME AND YOU KNOW IT AND I KNOW IT!
    Who needs intelligent and, um... existing examples when you can just make something up and say "I know that's an extreme example but..."?
  • axlryder
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    When you try and sum up someone's point into a short paragraph in order to minimize its validity, do try to be accurate.
    I said physiological differences, I never implied woman are inferior by nature, seeing as their emotional development generally exceeds that of males. The anecdote was not exaggerated, as we've seen it in a ton of high profile cases (Duke la-cross off the top of my head). I also never referenced white males either, you're just trying to shoehorn my argument into a category and fill in the gaps where you please; pretty fallacious for a guy/girl running the debate circuit. Also, this was never a debate, it was just me going on a tangential diatribe.
  • mrrubino
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    Duke Lacrosse? You mean that thing where a bunch of rich frat-boy jocks were accused of raping a girl of a different race, it became big news thanks to Sharpton and friends, they were found innocent, and noone talked about it ever again?

    Yeah, that's an example all right. This can be generalized to the general state of men in the world because, again, you just don't care to use real examples or honest tactics.
  • axlryder
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    LOL, what a caustic, presumptuous, pretentious asshole. You're seriously trying to dance around my point by poking holes in a single example? You're really trying to say these double standards don't exist? Seriously, honest tactics? you draw all sorts of unfounded conclusions and throw accusations and yet criticize me for not giving solid evidence. I don't know whether to get mad or laugh in your face. What's more, you never defended against my intial claims against you, and instead opted to whine about my examples not being good enough. I've debated with guys like you, you just go in circles forever. Waste of time.
  • Dwane
    Debates are for insecure assholes who feel the need to intellectually conquer someone else. How about productive discussion, where people try to discover the roots of their disagreement to find common ground and understand each other?

    Clearly you're annoyed that the pendulum seems to have swung to favor women, and I agree in some areas (custody agreements, for example). I'll also concede there are real, biological differenced between men and women. HOWEVER, your "point" about false rape accusations has one major flaw: real rapes outnumber false rape accusations by orders of magnitude. Women very rarely lie about that stuff, and the women who do are normally known to lie about all sorts of things and aren't widely believed by people who know them. Now think about the opposite of that. Imagine you are a rape victim, and your rapist is attractive, charming, and has a stellar reputation or a lot of people depending on him.. and nobody believes you, or worse, accuses you of trying to ruin that person's reputation. That also happens in real life. A lot of women never report their rapes for that reason (and also, if you're a victim of a sex crime the fewer people who know about it the easier it is to forget, or at least repress). I'll concede that men who are raped have an even harder time in this respect, but that is in large part due to widespread homophobia and idiotic, outdated ideas of masculinity that are largely perpetuated by men.

    Two final points: One, most feminists adhere to the definition of feminism as the radical notion that women are people. Unfortunately, most people think of the vocal wingnuts first.

    Second, never use fake anecdotes unless you preface them with "imagine if." They don't help your argument.
  • axlryder
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    SCREW YOUR COMMON GROUND!

    Jk, jk. Yeah, While there's truth to what I said, much of it simply wasn't fair in context. It would be no different than saying Christians are all terrible people and need to be done away with because of some debatable doctrine, potential contradictions and a few crazy churches. The feminist movement isn't perfect, but neither is anything else. I had just had a very bad day yesterday and felt like stirring the pot. I apologize for my immaturity and any distress I might have caused. However, I will always maintain that feminism is a horrible name for an equal rights movement and would be glad to see it changed. I also wouldn't mind seeing the entire movement grouped in with other equal rights movements that range across gender, race, age, etc. disagree if you want to.
  • Moogletosser
    Humanism was already taken.
  • mochaloca85
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    Ugh. Crystal Gail Mangum. Being that I'm from NC, we DO still talk about her lying ass setting both women and black people back 60 years. She was arrested AGAIN earlier this week for stabbing her boyfriend (seems like she gets arrested about once every six months), which dredged up even more racist and sexist/misogynistic sentiment on the various news forums in the state.

    That said, the few people who actually jumped on the "OMG, she must be telling the truth" bandwagon didn't do it because it was a female vs. male situation, but because 1) it was rich vs poor, 2) black vs white, and 3) people hate Duke.
  • Cooper1994
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    When using anecdotes, you should really use real ones. Now that nitpicking is out of the way, I am a feminist. I don't think its right that women can work just as hard as men and get paid less for it. However, I have kind of a different view on this than others.

    For example: if I'm going to shun the negative aspects of being a woman in this society, such as really taking offense to commercials like Evony's, I'm also going to not expect the perks. This means things like, having a door opened for me only on the basis that I'm female.

    I think that we have yet to realize the harmful effects of our biases towards men. Take, for example, a relationship I got into where, out of me and my boyfriend, I was the more masculine. He got into a fight and I jumped in to protect him. People joked that I was clearly a cross-dressing male, and him a cross-dressing female, and when we were paired up together the difference was made much clearer. It didn't matter as much for me, as people were more likely to favor my right to act more masculine than a female is expected to, but no-one was going to stand up for his right to not be as masculine. Because he was clearly a 'wuss.' IT didn't matter that he could academically run circles around me, but if I could throw farther than him, people had a problem. With him.

    100% true, by the way. :)
  • Semudara
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    God, I really hate gender roles and stereotypes. Society needs to evolve to the point where different people can just be different people.
  • Marshmallowcreampie
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    Okay, I'm a feminist, and I want to say I'm totally hardcore about equal rights for both sexes. I think men should be allowed to wear skirts and I believe that gender roles for both men AND women should be gotten rid of. This means not only women being allowed to work, but men being able to be stay-at-home dads without criticism. Please, PLEASE don't judge all of feminism because some whiny, idiotic misandrists get all the attention.
  • Rock Dragon
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    Misandry did not affect feminism. It's just that people who should NOT call themselves feminists do it anyway.
    Sexism is harmful to both genders. Just because some people claiming it as theirs are stupid doesn't mean the ideology is to blame.

    As for the "calling women girls" issue, there is one really baffling reason behind this.
    Calling women girls happnes IRL a lot and often the reason given is that the word woman has a sexual vibe to it where as the word girl is connected to innocence. (This does not apply for everyone, but it's a response often given to justify it.)
    That, to a lot of people, can really hit a nerve. As if being a woman, and therefore "a sexual being" or and object of sexuality, is somehow bad and/or insulting enough to give one a reason to avoid using the word entirely...
  • Sephiroth89
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    omg I know what you mean. I'm all for equal rights between men and women, but I'm getting sick of the recent feminists who seem to be pushing more for Female superiority over men, have double standards out of the ass and get offended when anyone not-female even MENTIONS feminism...its just so annoying. Not to mention what you said is so true..men and women are so fundamentally different that truly being equal in everything is ultimately impractical.
  • Tinted
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    Again, they are misandrists. Not feminists. People really need to learn the difference.
  • mrrubino
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    Have you actually met any of these people, or is this a "Mother's neighbor's dog's second cousin tried to hold a door open for a random woman and got yelled at. My natural assumption is she was a feminist." thing?

    EDIT: Or a "I read about it on the Internet somewhere. Man, what's with all these women who clearly exist and stuff?" thing?
  • lonercs
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    Your stupidity has gone on far enough. Here is the summary from this entire debate:


    Feminists- Want equal right for women.

    Misandrist- Hate men and believe that women are better then men and should be treated as such. They fucked up feminism and creates double standers and false biases.

    Double standers, gender-role/stereotypes- They are wrong and must be discard. They create inequality and sexism.

    Equality- We MUST have it for ALL! There must not be any perks,advantages, or disadvantage due to gender, race, ethnicity, etc. All double standards and the like must be let go.
    ------------------------- ----------------------
    mrrubino- Is a dumb ass.

    Tinted- Is defending feminist and pointing out the difference between feminist and misandry.

    axlryder- Is angry at the double standards,
    fucked up stereotypes, and negative views/effects that plague both men and women based on their sex.

    lonercs- Is annoyed!
  • mrrubino
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    Are you people quite done crying into your uteri about all those mysterious feminists you hear about so much on the Internet but can never seem to meet?
  • YaoiButterfly
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    As other people have been saying, those are misandrists. And Misogyny has just as many double standards.
  • YaoiButterfly
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    You say feminism is bad? Don't go classifying ALL feminism as a whole. There are many different branches of feminism. Yes, there are ones who are all about female superiority and whatnot and hate men. But I'M a feminist, and know plenty of other feminists as well, and I completely disagree with the feminists who hate men. All I want is for women to be treated equally as men, get the same pay as a man in their position would get. And don't get me started about how the United States deals with maternity leave. I'm not expecting to have someone throw their jacket over a puddle for me. Don't classify all feminists as these people who hate men and will persecute them for things in the blink of an eye. I would never treat someone less just because they're a man.

    You keep on saying that you're all for female equality, but at the core of the matter, that's what feminism is.
  • flameXI
    You need to go research a bit on what is the modern feminist movement. A modern feminist movement are looking at both side of the genders roles because they know they cannot change the world if they ignore half of it. They say look this is how gender roles affect men just like it effects women, and those effects aren't always good for men also, so les't change them for both men and women so we don't have genders roles. and Why do we have only 2 roles ?
    Feminist isn't what you see in loud TV news report most feminist know they don't need to be loud to change the world they live in.
  • Wermin2
    Jachra go back to the kitchen !
  • mrskippy
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    "I think that's more Doug's slight feminist streak"

    "When she has nice ta-tas, she's a woman"

    Hmmmm...yes, this is a very feminist sentiment....
  • Tinted
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    He's just saying that when a "girl" matures, she becomes a woman. And he was ranting about how condescending it is for a badass woman to treated like she's in need of protecting, and I'd call that attitude feminist.
  • Marshmallowcreampie
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    Agreed. Also note that a man acknowledging a woman's "assets" shouldn't count as a sexist statement. I mean, if I, a woman, went on and on about a guy's abs, no one would say I was being sexist against men, now would they? :)
  • tsumirechan
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    Thank you. Now, I love Doug and I appreciate some of the nods he gives towards not upper-middle-class, white, cis-male, straight people being people, too, and deserving as much respect. I really do appreciate that!

    But I lol at the people who think him doing that makes him some ultra-raging feminist. He makes some problematic statements, like the one you just quoted.

    The implication of that statement is that boobs are what make the woman. Some women don't have boobs (like cis-women who have had mastectomies and pre-op transwomen), some women have small boobs, and some people who have boobs aren't women (like transmen and some genderqueer people). An active feminist would realize the bad implications in a statement like that.

    Now, I don't really care. This statement and the other occasional problematic statements he might make aren't going to keep me up at night. And I find him too amusing to stop watching him over the statements, either. What does bother me are the people who think that him acknowledging that infantilizing a grown woman by calling her "girl" means that Doug is going to start wearing shirts saying things like "a woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle" in every video. What the hell, people.
  • Tinted
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    Nobody's saying he's an ultra-raging feminist. We just like the fact that the Critic has a thing for strong women, bashed damsels in distress and has talked about his dislike for action girls having to be kidnapped and princesses ruling instead of queens. Not to mention that Doug has discussed his feminism before. He's a good guy, I think we can agree on that right?
  • tsumirechan
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    Well, there was the "feminist streak" comment up there, and I've also witnessed a lot of people going batshit and making anti-feminist comments on Doug's facebook page to defend him against the ebil feminazis who took issue with some of his comments in the Airborne review. So realistically I wasn't just addressing the thread up there--sorry for the poor communication on my part.

    And of course we can agree on Doug being a good guy! One of the reasons I've been continuing to watch him for years is because he's funny on camera, and intelligent and awesome off camera. :)
  • Tinted
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    I don't usually come around here that often (I'm not *that* much of a masochist), but I've been on his facebook page and for the most part it's been good. The nice comments on that lovely post about gender roles greatly outweigh the bad and while I was a little "wha?" about his comments in the Airborne review (mostly because the Critic's torn into "guys must fight to prove their worth" aesops before and he's not exactly a stereotypical man either), it was a relief to see it was a case of not thinking things through, not of any malice.

    Generally, I really just think it's a few trolls causing the issue, like those jackasses who call Linkara gay for not liking objectification of women. The video producers on here are the sweetest people I've seen, and more should follow their example. :)
  • tsumirechan
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    I do have to agree that for the most part it's good as well. Just the vast number of the bad comments (coming from trolls, bros, whatever) can be a little disheartening...

    I agree. I love the video producers here, they are, the vast majority of the time, very good people.

    And oh god I cannot stand the jackasses who hate Linkara...I was on /co/ once a couple of months back (for the pony threads) and I noticed someone posted a thread about Linkara. And used a derogatory term for transgender people to refer to his girlfriend. I was seeing red for the rest of the day.

    And YES x infinity to "more should follow their example." Glad to see that we're on the same page. :)
  • ladydiskette
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    One of the top things I agree with him on were the CGI and "women being called girls"

    CGI-I have seen alot of good CGI movies. But he has a point. If you are going to do a movie about people do live-action. If its something like a movie aboout animals that talk or fantasy worlds do animation. Because all it matters is how realistic, unique, and authentic its suppose to be. CGI can be great for special effects but it should be used in moderation.

    Women being called girls-I don't see it as a feminist issue IMO but really I think he is trying to say that its basically redundant to call a thirty year old woman a "girl" because she is at a age where she would be holding down a job and having children. Basically maturity. Its all a oxymoron or something where you see on the Youtube comments that show someone's video of a cute kitten,people squeeing and going "Oh what a cute baby kitten!" a kitten is a baby cat. Why call it that? Its the same logic in my opinon. The same goes with girl-women. a Girl is a younger unmature woman. They can't be one and the same. Once again, I think its more along the lines of redundantcy.
  • rockybalboa211
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    Wait whats wrong with calling a woman a "girl"? Isn't it the same as calling a man a "guy"? I thought those were equivalent for the respected genders?

    SHOOTER MCGAVIN IS AWESOME!! :D
  • Marshmallowcreampie
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    Definately agree with ya on the CGI. If you're making a live action movie and can do a scene without CGI, do it without CGI. But if you need the CGI to make it look good and realistic, like if you're animating a fantasy creature or making some cool new world or atmosphere that you cannot acheieve through other means with good results, by all means, go for it.

    As for the other things on the list... NC, I DEFINATELY agree with you on the Liar Revealed. That one has bugged me ever since I was a little kid. It's like, why can't they just forgive? They made it through the movie together, they formed a friendship bond or perhaps something more, FORGIVE!
  • Neo Ultra Mike
    human emotions and expressions to make the characters seem more real. Movies do this as well but you are immersing yourself as the characters and getting into the storylines more with games, while there's a less direct path you take with movies.

    6. Abusing Close Up Wide Angle Lenses: Acutally this has been a cliche since Space Jam Doug has been annoyed with. The idea of positioning the camera right in front of someone looking like they're about to eat the camera. I think it works sometimes for a good jump scare shot, but it is quite often abused. I'm reminded of an episode of Home Movies "Life Through A Fish Eyes Lense" where Brendon wanted to buy one just to make his movies look cooler, while Jason and Melissia didn't really see the point to them. Which is a nice comparison: it's the kind of trick kids with cameras think is so cool, but why would actual directors want to really bother using them over and over again?

    5. Singing Dramatic Choir: Another one he's gone on about over and over again and does so a bit here. It's one I haven't been really too bothered by but I think is another one of his pet peeves he wanted to rant on... for like a minute.

    4. The Dreamer Quirky Poet Character: You know the character that really means well and has big dreams but acts so goofy, yet if society just accepted them they'd be fine. Anime actually put a spin on that character trope: the Dreamer Quirky Poet Who Is Secretly A No Nonsense Buttkicker who could own you but just likes appearing quirky more then serious. Though that later cliche annoys me too at least it makes the characters look a bit more deep. The original trope dosne't get too good a mileage. I did like how NC pointed out that this works in the grandiose world of Disney Movies of the early 90's, but nowadays and even in other 90 films just feels so cheesy..

    3. Misunderstanding: Ooooh yeah now we're talking. I'm sure you all know this one: A couple that's about to be in love finds out some misinformation about the other and temporarily break up, even though they wind up making up at the end of the film. Actually sometimes I think "okay maybe THIS movie is going to wind up brekaing that cliche and we'll have a stupid yet different ending", but that never happens. Actually though that isn't the only misunderstanind that sucks. What about the overheard conversation misunderstanding? You know, a common plot in kids shows. Where the characters overhear a group of people talking, using similes and metaphors that make them think "oh no they're going to do something HORRIBLE" and try sneaking around to stop this group, but it turns out "oh wait we were actually doing something nice for you this entire time. Ha ha ha, you thought we were monsters". I really hate that one as well. They do it in Fairly Oddparents, Powerpuff Girls, Hey Arnold, etc etc. Really as Doug said it just stops the movie or stalls a plotlin...
  • Neo Ultra Mike
    plotline since you KNOW it's going to get resolved. And usually it's the same type of resolve each and every time.

    2. Liar Revealed: Yeah another one I can defintley agree is stupid. The problem with this one is that it can be a good cliche... if we're talking about the villian. When the angotanist tries to be charming/seductive/sly/ prickish by constantly lying and digging themselves in a hole, we look forward to seeing them taken down or exposed because of the kind of person they are. Even if it's cliche we want them to pay for what they've done because if they expierence justice, we don't feel slighted by the movie. However when it's a hero character who lies... that's annoying. Since there's always the scene where everyone's like "Wait a minute, you're not the legendary so and so" or "you're not Mr. Supremely Cool Guy you said you were. How dare you!" Really people in real life don't cut off or walk away for a person for lying. Maybe if they were doing it to be hurtful or if they continously made you beleive they were something they weren't sure, but not the big dramatic reveals movie would have you believe. It's more beleivable for people not to care too much or be angry and confront the person then to storm off in a huff, and the hero has to prove themselves before they are accepted. That's why characters who never learn, villian characters, or people who are more in on the lies make for good scenarios then so called hero liars.

    1. Bullies: Another thing NC has ranted on about before but he has a point. Villians who are bad for... the sake of being bad usually suck, unless they are entertaining or it's done in a way that besmurches them for being bullies. I admitt that yes you do have some bullies in elementary school and middle school who seem to get off on acting like jerks, but it's not the only things they do. In a lot of kids cartoons and movies it seems like the villians can only functions as jerks as if it's their job, and that's it. This IMHO is a cliche worse in shows though then in movies. As cliche as it is, at least bullies in movies get their commeppuance and you never have to worry about them acting that way again. But in TV Shows, you have bully characters who just stay bullies and torment our heroes for no particuarly good reason. And they more often then not only get mild punishment or get away with their actions since they continue doing them. Personally I think misunderstandings are more annoying then bullies but both really are things that need to stop in shows. I think misunderstandings are worse since there are acutal buillies in real life and there is more of a stand being put out to stop them (like those CN ads you see running) while no one seems like they're stopping misunderstandings from stopping.

    So yeah good list and I had to spread this in three due to having a really long post to talk about this.
  • WarxePB
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    Definitely agree with #1, but I think that can be broadened to "one-dimensional characters" in general. Occasionally you get a character whose sole trait is so over the top that you just can't help liking them, but the other 99% just exist to provide needless antagonism or move the plot along. It's an easy cop out, but a bad one in my mind.
  • Ashoten2021
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    lol if you want to watch a show with nothing but one dimensional characters that's entertaining try High School of the Dead.
  • CellSeam
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    I pretty much agree with everything you said, and you reasoned it well, well everything but the music. I like cheesy music. But ABSOLUTELY the MISUNDERSTANDING and the LIAR. I cannot stand those plot points anymore, (used in both megamind and tangled, so... its still going on)

    Cliches I HATE:

    "HE'S DEAD!!"
    "No he's just unconscious."
    OH god, no more of this 'weep like he's dead when he's just going to wake up in 10 seconds.' Only when you actually try to revive them does that work.

    Female geeks in movies look like supermodels.
    No they don't. You hit on this in Easy A, thanks for that.

    Geeky/unattractive boy ends up with hot cheerleader/supermodel.
    You know, its ok for a geek to be with a geek once in while.

    Dreamworks cliches
    I like the original Shrek, but its basically enslaved all animated movies of this decade into its exact format (ok, disney did the same thing in the 90s but... they were better movies) It's not all bad... yet. It's getting there. Essentially the overly sacastic 'hip' dialogue not even HTTYD could escape, but the worst is (sigh) the end of the movie dance sequence. This came to an all time low in Megamind, where they said 'well we need a dance sequence, but let's do something new and not make it coordinated or sychronized at all, it'll be like a bunch of rhythm challenged white people dancing to music in their head (I wish I was exaggerating) and to top it of, we'll make in to Micheal Jackson's Bad.
  • kay9  - Good List!
    I agree these piss me off more than the ones Doug mentioned.
  • Kitpup
    avatar
    The liar revealed is probably the one that ticks me off the most, but I have to say Rango used it to good effect, it wasn't there just to be there, there was actual character growth.

    For the rest, pretty much agreed, especially on the last. Kiki is one of my favorite movies because there simply is no antagonist. There can be conflict without an antagonist!
  • SkullCap  - Liar revealed
    avatar
    I'd like to see a liar revealed scenario, but when the character is called out for lying about who they are I wanna see them stand firm in their reason for lying. In a Bug's Life what did Flick do? He lied about the circus bugs being warriors, but he gave his colony confidence and a goal of being free from their oppressors. Why didn't he start saying that the ants that outnumbered the grasshopper gang 100:1? He waits until the end of the movie to say what he could've said 20 minutes ago and he still won the crowd over.

    "You lied to the colony, you lied to me!" Yet what did that accomplish? He prevented his people dying from heat stroke and starving to feed a small gang of thugs.

    Doug, I hate the Liar Revealed too. I just want to see the character defend themselves on the spot and point out if they hadn't lied the people/place would never have improved for the better. The lie was in their best interest and they always seem to forget that. Just the fact that he didn't tell them erases their memory of how less crappy their lives are.
  • jaknova
    Thanks for that insight on Rango! Once I learned it was another "Normal guy pretends to be a hero and dupes locals" story, I lost interest. Now my interest is renewed.
  • Dwane
    Ditto with My Neighbor Totoro, but it's kind of slow before the conflict presents itself.
  • fatnoo13  - Too Reliant on CGI
    When he mentioned that, I was reminded about how Christopher Nolan marginally uses CGI and it's really admirable.
  • tommygun888
    avatar
    you should do something about australian ns
  • Heisanevilgenius
    avatar
    I could do a top 100 list of cliches I hate. Yet, I don't think any of these would be on the list. Weird, huh?

    Edit: Actually, maybe the misunderstanding. That is pretty annoying.
  • pap64
    avatar
    Regarding the quirky character against the world, trope, here is my take on it.

    One of the first goals fiction writers want to accomplish in their work is to have the reader/audience/player/ watcher relate to the main character. Nothing gets that accomplished faster than the underdog, because we see ourselves as the underdog.

    Principles of the "woobie" also apply here: Characters that are so quirky, so lovable, and so endearing, and yet they get nothing but crap in their lives, and when they do win or make a dream a reality we are happy for them. In an odd way, the reason why is because we feel as if WE can make our goals happen.

    That's why the Disney films are so popular: They are all about the quirky character gaining something out of life.

    Regarding the whole concept of cliches, personally I don't mind them when they are done right. Check out TV Tropes when you can. It is all about taking familiar ideas and creating something new with it. It's when the cliche is so EXTREMELY obvious that everything is ruined. I can forgive a movie's cliches if the story is well developed, it is fun and well made. If not, then the cliches become even more noticeable.
  • Ogre Samanosuke
    avatar
    I'm totally with you Doug on the credits bit. I can think of a handful of movies that instantly got my attention with interesting credit sequences. My favorite example is Lucky Number Slevin. I shows fragments of the opening story between a very neat and stylized credit opening that plays like it's being effected by the events of the scenes.

    As for the #1 I can't agree enough. Too many movies have been ruined by boring, terrible villians. And movies that should of been awful turned out great because of great villians. Look at The A-Team, Patrick Wilson made the stereotypical turncoat spy a great villian because he was aware he was a cardboard cutout and had fun with it.

    Come to think of it, Wilson is just a great villian in general. Look at how utterly detestable he is in Hard Candy.
  • SkullCap
    avatar
    I hate bullies that are dicks "just because," not only that, but psychotic in their actions (ex. Karate Kid and McGruber).

    Cliches I hate:

    > The socially-minded character: the would-be political activist that just berates other characters and somehow relates whatever issue other characters are having with their environment and radical political viewpoint. You see this character in all high school movies; all they do is stand atop their soap box and whine. Sometimes it works, but they aren't doing anything except filling in a space in the movie screen.

    > Unlikable female leads that filmmakers try to make us feel sorry for. Modern day horror movies, the Twilight series, friggin' Showgirls, and romantic comedies. They are horrible people, self-absorbed, weak-minded, and are an insult to strong female characters. Yet when something bad happens to them the soft music starts playing meaning the character has a sad :( No, you can't show us how terrible and self-centered they are; then try to have us side with them because they're hurt.
  • SkullCap  - oh boy
    avatar
    EDIT: I didn't mean McGruber (I know crap when I see it), I was actually thinking of the bullies in the movie starring Owen Wilson called "Drillbit Taylor," which was okay. One of the bullies in the movie is insane, this is not an exaggeration. He pursues and attempts to run over the main characters (two young boys) with his car, all the while having this deranged smile across his face. Even at the end he's so mad that while cops show up at his house to stop the standard "oppressed standing up to their oppressors" scene. Immediately after this throws a Katana at the young boys in hopes of killing them, but Owen Wilson catches it in his hand (resulting in him losing a finger).
  • TragicGuineaPig
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    Hey! Whatever happened to "going one step beyond"?
  • Ruby Doomsday
    avatar
    That's "The Nostalgia Critic". This is Doug. Doug doesn't like to go one step beyond. :P
  • That Black Guy With the G  - ....
    avatar
    ...holy crap, Mars Needs Mom came out already? I didn't even notice. Wow.
  • axlryder
    avatar
    Unfortunately, neither did anyone else
  • Ally-Gator  - Mars needs better movies
    avatar
    I'm not even kidding when I say that, until Doug mentioned it, I was blissfully unaware that Mars Needs Mom's even existed. I looked up the trailer and....how can a movie where Seth Green posesses a CGI animated doll-child and, along with a fat guy and a tiny webcam-dog, goes to save his equally lifeless CGI puppet of a mother from Jar-Jar Binx's distant cousins make for good cinema? (though I think the way I put it made it sound more interesting).
  • Grimfang
    avatar
    WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOW
    loved this
  • TEi  - Idiot World
    avatar
    TVTropes has a pair of tropes on it called "Idiot Ball" and "Idiot Plot." The Idiot Ball is given to a character when they act uncharacteristically idiotic in order to drive the story forward, and Idiot Plot is when everybody in the immediate vicinity of the story acts uncharacteristically idiotic for the same sake. What really gets me, though, is a cliche I'm not sure TVTropes covers: the Idiot World.

    The Idiot World - by my own definition anyhow - is one where the entire world is *literally* full of idiots, and a lot of shows and movies suffer from this cliche. Shows like Family Guy, American Dad, South Park, Invader Zim...hell, most of the Adult Swim line-up is populated by shows that use this cliche and it's SO. ANNOYING. Like, some people find it funny, and I'll admit that those shows do pull a genuine chuckle out of me every once in a while, but it gets frustrating when these dumbass characters get involved in events in their dumbass world that could be fixed *so easily* if a single one of them had a lick of sense.

    Is that to say the shows that rely on the Idiot World cliche are bad? Well, if they *are* bad, the Idiot World cliche is less the source and more of a significant hinderance. Family Guy can be pretty clever when it doesn't use minute-long jokes, and South Park is great when it's not marinading in self-inflicted stupidity.

    (Besides, the Idiot Plot trope is what made Kickassia possible. It can work, if done right.)
  • axlryder
    avatar
    Um, your "idiot world" cliche is this thing called satire, and people tend to use it as a basis for humor. I'm not saying it's all funny, but I think you're kinda only seeing half the picture here
  • melgibson
    Ever since The Simpsons, almost every animated show since has mostly copied the formula: 'typical' American family, characters with one or two quirks each that get 'flanderized' as the show progresses, there's the idiot father / underachiever, the smart guy who later becomes the mouthpiece, the cool jerk, etc. Every episode there are two subplots involving one or more of these characters doing something topical, with character humor playing off of their quirks. And none of those fucking shows can go more than thirty seconds while going through the plot without making some sort of joke, even if it's awful or barely even funny, because the writers think they might lose their audience's attention or something - Doug actually is guilty of this in a lot of NC videos too.

    The really annoying part is that I can go through Google, search for random ten-minute Warner Bros. / MGM / UPA cartoons I haven't seen before, entirely out of their pop-culture context from seventy years ago or whatever, and it'll be consistently more humorous than anything I've seen that night on Seth MacFarlane's 2-hour Sunday animation block. Actually I can't remember laughing at a single joke from a 'Family Guy' episode in years; it's not clever, it's not funny, some of the later episodes can get almost preachy, and I wouldn't mind if it were funny, but ... it isn't.

    I kind of miss those sorts of cartoons, e.g. 'Pink Panther', where the characters aren't all assholes or morons; everything's done with a bit of class, there's half-decent music, no real need for any predictable plots or anvil-dropping satire, nothing overstays its welcome. Some of my favorites are 90's Nicktoons like 'Hey Arnold!' where the characters seem familiar, without being too stereotypical. 'Bob's Burgers' seems kind of promising in that the main character isn't an idiot, but he kind of lives in an 'idiot world' as you described.
  • Morgoth Bauglir
    avatar
    It actually started with the Flintstones, friend.
  • melgibson
    I'm not sure The Flintstones really count since
    1) it was more in-line with Dick Van Dyke-style sitcoms of the time, where The Simpsons broke sharply from the well-established formula, its success setting a trend not only for animated shows but live-action ones as well (Roseanne, Malcolm in the Middle, etc.)
    2) Fred wasn't really an asshole (usually) or a moron (usually), Bam-Bam is probably the closest thing there is to a Bart character, and instead of preaching or adding an author-insertion mouthpiece as the series dragged on, they added some sort of wish-granting alien
    3) while The Simpsons spawned dozens of imitators, the only semi-successful knock-off of its time (that I know of) is The Jetsons

    The lame jokes every thirty seconds are definitely there, complete with laugh-tracks. Quirky character humor and two-subplots-per-episode are also common. Certainly the show influenced everything that came afterward, but I would hesitate to call shows like South Park a Flintstones knock-off.
  • Ashoten2021
    avatar
    That's because Seth McFarland can't make his political views believable unless he cheats :P

    Stan on America Dad is a different character every episode.
  • Archedgar
    No #11?!


    What the fiddle sticks Doug? still great video and I agree with almost all of your list.
  • Not Shelley Duvall
    About the Poetic Singer (or, as TV Tropes refers to it, the One Woman Wail), I think one of the exceptions to the rule is in "Fellowship of the Ring," after Gandalf has fallen. Because it's not in that fakey language or in such a nasal tone. Just a pure boy-soprano's voice on straight notes, and it actually sounds like he's crying. It SOUNDS mournful, and not pretentious at all. Ofra Haza also got some GORGEOUS wailing in "The Prince of Egypt." And again, it sounded like legit wailing, not like pretentious twaddle.

    Also, the good use of "The Misunderstanding" cliche in "The King's Speech." Based on real people. So, there's an example of that "cliche" working in real life, which you said you wanted more of (also, I'm pretty sure I know EXACTLY which moment you're referring to...)
  • ckyvick
    Thank god for mars needs moms. Now I don't have to deal with that shitty Yellow Submarine remake they were going to do.
  • 0dd1
    avatar
    O_O This is true!

    To be fair, though, I was curious as to how that would've turned out, but this is probably for the best.
  • TheDued92
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    The one I hate is when the good guy has a chance to kill the bad guy, but does not.
  • curtnasty
    funny; i thought you got a kick out of the over dramatic choir.
  • Morgoth Bauglir
    avatar
    A choir? Yes, That's cool. One random singer vocalizing for the sake of vocalizing at a moment where it isn't really necessary or dramatic? Not so much.
  • Mizu Takishima  - Wall of Text Ahead.
    avatar
    Those are all very interesting Cliche's! I think the Liar reveal is one I can't stand either XD I THOUGHT I WAS THE ONLY ONE DREADING THE 20 MINUTES OF MOPING AND SUCH. That's why I can't stand it when characters lie in the beginning xD

    Nobody's gonna read this, but here's a cliche I can't f*cking stand:

    The love interest in action flicks.

    Y'know, that 1 chick who's just there to be a love interest. Why can't movies have a decent balance of male and female characters? Either make it a decent balance, or make it a total sausage fest. (Not that I'm trying to generalize males, but from what I've seen in movies and stuff, guys only know how to write for guy characters) It's not like adding "romance" will make other girls go see the movie. They'll see it if it has good plot, characters and action in it. ESPECIALLY SO if there's a bunch of hot guys. (Not that all girls are shallow or anything, but I'd rather they cut out the romance all together and get to the part that's relevant to the plot, not following the main character's love life if it's NOT EVEN A ROMANCE) F*ck the Romance.

    If guys are only seeing an action flick just so they could watch the sex scenes, then they're lookin' for the wrong kind of "action" movie.

    Or heck, even if you're going to only have 1 chick (or very little chicks) in the movie, at least make them well-written for goodness sakes. They don't have to be strong, indipendant and sexy in one big package; give them flaws and don't cram so much perfection into her just 'cause the main character wants and/or bangs her. My goodness.

    I get it, good movies have a balance of everything, but I'd rather a movie be limited but done extremely well, instead of it force-feeding a bunch of different genres and tropes all at once.

    Again, it's about Balance. Either make it a sausage fest (since guys only seem to know how to write GUY CHARACTERS) or make it so that there's a decent gender ratio with the girls written JUST AS WELL AS THE GUYS ARE.

    I'm sorry if what I said offended anyone, but it's just one of those things that I see so often, and it's the main reason why I dislike a majority of what comes from Hollywood in the first place.
  • DonGrif
    I couldn't stop thinking about Transformers when I read your post :)
  • Mizu Takishima
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    Hehe thanks, that's actually one (of many) examples I had in mind as I was writing it :) (inb4 "LOL ANOTHER GIRL WHO HATES MEGAN FOX" *facepalm*)
  • axlryder
    avatar
    You've obviously never heard of appealing to the lowest common denominator

    here's a quick example scenario for you

    "Sir, the results of our box office comparisons are in"

    "Mhm, and what do they reveal?"

    "Well sir, these action movies that had bewbs in them made more money than these movies that DIDN'T have bewbs in them"

    "Duly noted, from now on adds bewbs to all of our movies, and I don't legitimately care about what they're attached to"

    the more you know
  • Mizu Takishima
    avatar
    Oh trust me, I've heard of it.

    But that doesn't make it any less cliche'd, and that doesn't mean I have to like it. It still gets under my skin, even if I know how all of that works.

    If they didn't put walking breasts with vagina's attached to them in movies to begin with, then the movies that make the most money would be movies that're actually well written.

    At least, that's what my idealistic little heart tells me.
  • axlryder
    avatar
    Yeah, sex has sold since the advent of the business model, however rudimentary it might have been.

    I'm certainly not very happy about it, but what ya'gonna do?
  • Mizu Takishima
    avatar
    I think the most I can do is just keep spreading the word that a) Romance doesn't attract a female audience, and b) Women characters should be written just as well as the guys.

    If people take things like that into consideration now, then there's hope for Movies and Television in the future :)
  • axlryder
    avatar
    Well romance does attract a female audience, otherwise romcoms and harlequin romance novels wouldn't have the enormous market that they do. As for action movie romance, that's probably more pandering to the female who's idiot boyfriend took her to see it (and is likely an idiot herself by association). You're definitely counter to the norm when you say that you don't care about romance.

    As for well written females, Hell yeah I'd like to see more of them. You rarely get well written females in movies ABOUT females (ultraviolet, Sucker Punch, aeon flux, twilight, etc.) Though admittedly a lot of action movies have equally poorly written male and female leads, the males just tend to get more backstory and dialogue.
  • Mizu Takishima
    avatar
    Ahh, very good point, especially that last short paragraph.

    As for the first part, I keep forgetting that I'm out of the ordinary on the subject XD Though keep in mind that romance novels and the like are intended to be romantic. Shoe-horned romances that're irrelevant to the plot and character development, to me, just doesn't seem necessary.

    Besides, I'm sure that most women would rather watch a movie for its story and characters (plus the action, if it's an action movie) than the...well...forced irrelevant romance/sex.

    But you're right, the idiot-couples seeing it for the romance in an otherwise decent action flick are probably a majority of people who go to movies than, well, myself and the few like-minded oddballs who don't care about that sort of thing xD

    I hope my banter wasn't a bother to you or anything.
  • axlryder
    avatar
    You know, I'm impressed that you managed to hold a level headed conversation in the face of me being a totally patronizing a-hole in my initial comment; I wouldn't have been nearly as gracious to me. I admit I was in a bad mood yesterday, and really ended up taking it out in the comments (apologies all around). So thumbs up for being mature about it.
  • Mizu Takishima
    avatar
    Oh wow, thank you so much :) It's quite alright, I usually don't like assuming the worst in people so I figured that you were either in a bad mood, or that you naturally talked to people like that all the time. Not that I assumed you were a jerk or anything, it's just that I have a tenancy to be over-sensitive, so I wanted to stay positive throughout the conversation.

    Speaking of thumbs up, though, did this site get rid of the thumbs up/down feature? I'm afraid I don't see it, for some reason...
  • Ohsha
    Tales from RL: Saw The World is not Enough w/my sisters. They found Denise Richards too ditzy to be a scientist. I liked her :)
  • Moogletosser
    Most of the people who use that phrase are art snobs...just saying.
  • KJT
    avatar
    I'm with you; I hate shoehorned-in love interests. They expect it in novels a bit too; one of my agents complained that I didn't have enough romance in my book and that would put off female readers.

    Side note: a large number of my most passionate fans are, in fact, girls, none of whom care about the romance. In your face, agent!
  • Mizu Takishima
    avatar
    So you're a Novelist??? That's amazing!

    Add me to the list of "girls who don't care about romance!" X3 Even though I may not have read your work (I'm not as literate as I like to be since I mostly just read manga/comics) but if there's not too much romance, I say it'd totally be up my ally! (Not that all Romance is bad, but when it's shoehorned in the ways I mentioned earlier, then...yeah XD)
  • brick mooncode
    avatar
    If you like superfluous love interests, watch the Lindsay Lohan movie Confessions Of A Teenage Drama Queen. At the end of the movie she falls in love with this guy friend she had through the entire movie. And believe it or not, I haven't spoiled anything, because this guy friend was obviously tacked on at the last minute, and removing him entirely from the movie would affect the plot in no way whatsoever, a fact which is very poorly hidden.
  • Mizu Takishima
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    Bleh, that doesn't sound like my thing at all! XD (or were you talking to someone else?)
  • QuestionTheMajority
    avatar
    Thanks for pointing this one out. It's one of my most hated cliches as well. Not just in action movies, but in any story where there's a shoehorned-in romantic subplot that has no purpose being there.

    Don't get me wrong, a good romantic subplot can really help a movie, but more often than not, the characters just end up attracted to each other because the plot says so. American movies and television shows are terrible for this. The show Big Bang Theory drives me up the wall with it's stupid on-again-off-again relationship with Leonard and Penny. By comparison, I love the British geek comedy series The IT Crowd because it doesn't lower itself to that level. There's no forced romantic element to the show because the writers know it's not natural and it's not funny. There are a few moments where they've made a vague implied attraction between characters only to make it a big joke.

    It's very true that writers pretty much use the romantic angle in hopes that's what will bring in the female viewers and it's just stupid and insulting to the audience. Lord, I wish they'd stop doing it.
  • Mizu Takishima
    avatar
    Oh gosh, I'm so glad you agree!

    Thanks for the info too, I should totally check out The IT Crowd myself :D (Hopefully I can find it on youtube or something)

    I know it's not just in action flicks, of course; I just thought I'd mention it since most people know of the Notorious example from the Transformer Movie/s. (did they make more than one? I can't remember) Plus it's been on my mind, ever since watching the "Captain America" and "Green Lanturn" trailers. I'm sure those two movies won't be nearly as bad with the shoe-horned romance and poorly written female character/s, but it sure seems like it from what little I saw...sigh~
  • Moogletosser
    They could be better about it, but I don't think that's always the case. Then there's biology making it difficult to avoid attraction.

    Most male action heroes are already similar and kind of bland anyway. How often do you see a big action star doubt themselves and admit to being afraid? Instead it's almost always a stoic buff guy with special weapon-training.
  • avatar
    The one cliche that pisses me off is the one where something that has been lost and has not been found for years and years, is suddenly stumbled upon. Even if it has NO F*'ING thing to do with the main story.

    The one movie that sticks out in my mind was Vertical Limits with Chris O'Donnell. It was a fun movie up to one point. The character played by Scott Glenn is an outsider and acts as a guide to O'Donnell. There is a little back story that he lost is wife in the mountains and has been looking for her for years and has become secluded because he can't find her. Half-way through the movie they are in the mountains, the path splits open... And low and behold, he suddenly with out reason finds the frozen body of his wife. It stopped the story dead in its tracks, threw all believability out the window, and to me that one little scene ruined the whole movie.
  • Tom Smith  - The Mummy was bad, madness.
    avatar
    What, what, no love for The Mummy? That was a great 1999 movie.
    And for #3 doesn't happen for Tarzan. Tarzan gains a huge fortune, but the jerk takes the money and marries Jane. Tarzan could claim the money, but thinks Jane is in love with the jerk. Jane thinks Tarzan doesn't love her, and since back in the day women had no rights she kinda had to stay married. Sad. Romeo and Juliet was also a case where they never figure out that there was a misunderstanding, but they never figure it out and die comically. Always find that one funny.
  • KJT
    avatar
    I love the first two Mummy movies - they're great campy fun, and wonderfully unpretentious.

    The third one, on the other hand, is the only movie I ever walked out of. I should've demanded a refund. Ugh.
  • TheAngryAnimeAddict
    avatar
    With you on most of these except the choir. I love that darn cliche for some reason.

    Ones that drive me nuts:

    Everyone thinks char is dead, feel sad, comes back to life, isn't really dead.

    Cruel Humor. I'm really sick of it in comedy/parody movies. Vampires Sucked, sucked. The hangover was okay. Due Date, was just horrible. It wasn't funny, it was more unGodly cruel.
    I mean a cruel joke once in awhile is okay, but when the movie thrives on it, I just get so angry and disgusted, and offended....


    Another one that drives me nuts is how romantic comedies, or romances in general refer to "Romeo and Juliet" as a really romantic image. I really hate that. It's a wonderful shakespere story, yes, but I hate it how everyone treats it like Peaches and Cream, when it was really gruesome and both killed themselves from a misunderstanding.
    (FUCK THOSE MISUNDERSTANDINGS)

    Cocktease romances drive me nuts too.

    The Token Chick. (the Nostalgia Chick explained this for me, so I don't need to explain too much why I hate them)
  • Tom Smith  - The Mummy was bad, madness.
    avatar
    What, what, no love for The Mummy? That was a great 1999 movie.
    Back in the days before cliques #3 (the misunderstanding) doesn't happen for Tarzan. Tarzan gains a huge fortune, but the jerk takes the money and marries Jane. Tarzan could claim the money, but thinks Jane is in love with the jerk. Jane thinks Tarzan doesn't love her, and since back in the day women had no rights she kinda had to stay married. Sad. Romeo and Juliet was also a case where they never figure out that there was a misunderstanding, but they never figure it out and die comically. Always find that one funny.
  • Blotto
    avatar
    CGI would be a little higher on my list. I would take puppets, stop-motion and rotoscoping over CGI anyday.

    As for Poetic singer moments, I think of Gangs of New Yorks where you would hear some Gaelic or folk singing but you would always see the person singing walk on frame, those were well done.

    Great top ten, I hope to see in the Future.."Top Ten films that should never be remade!", I would love to hear your thoughts.
  • axlryder
    avatar
    stop motion and rotoscoping aren't very practical in live action films anymore. Puppets were fine once, but there aren't too many places they could be applied these days outside of moderately sized creatures like Yoda, and even then they would still be limiting. That's not to say that puppets are totally obsolete, but they're certainly not the cheapest and most viable option.
  • jdreyfuss
    avatar
    He acknowledged that CGI is cheaper than practical effects, but he also said that it looks too cheap to work in many instances. Makeup technology has improved so that humanoid creatures can look realistic when played by humans and if you look at a show like Farscape you can see the improvement in puppetry and animatronics that allow for practical effects in scene as well.

    Giant, grand scenes that used to have "a cast of thousands," like the mass battles in the Lord of the Rings movies work well in CGI because they're on a grand scale and don't require a close look, but we still can't make certain textures realistic enough to work in close ups.
  • Blotto
    avatar
    Don't care if it's practical, it's just my preference.

    The limitations of puppets force film makers to be more creative with what they have...desperately needed, in my opinion.
  • Shadowcross  - Sounds mostly like...
    avatar
    What your calling cliches (up til #4)sounds, to me, like the director's creative filming techniques.

    If your top Favorite cliches set the precedent, I thought the ones you disliked would be story-oriented.

    But I not really that well-versed in Cinema outside of what I ruin for myself with TVtropes.

    Cheers.
  • TamLin
    But there is a contradiction here, where Doug says cliches wouldn't be so bad if they just corresponded more to real life, and yet, bullies are very much a part of real life, particularly (but certainly not exclusively) when you're young. And, very often, they're not interesting people at all, they're just little assholes, and their antagonism is either senseless or rooted in stupid, petty things.

    Also in real life, they frequently ARE the root of a lot of people's conflicts, sometimes years beyond the scope of the actual bullying. Frankly, bullying is one of the few things about adolescents and high school that movies depict somewhat realistically. I know far more kids who were bullied than high school nerds who dated the prom queen. I didn't know any hot girls who were social outcasts because they wore glasses and had a ponytail, and my lunch room was not divided up into cliques that you could pick out at face value, but I did know people who were bullied.
  • Dwane
    I have to agree. Most bullies are just plain bullies. There is no secret conflict. There are a number of reasons given for why people behave this way, but none of them really make bullies any more sympathetic. They're really just jerks. Most grow out of it in later adulthood, and a lot of them completely forget that they were bullies. Those of us who were bullied, however, never forget it.

    "The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense."
    -Tom Clancy
  • MissManiacs
    avatar
    I know of a couple of cliches

    1. The "dead" hero that everyone cries ends up just being unconscious for 10 seconds. Why don't they ever check the pulse?

    2. The bitchy love interest that treats you like shit but you still like he/she because they misunderstood or "not like the others".
  • Mizu Takishima
    avatar
    I agree with you for number two SO HARD.

    I also hate it when it's that, PLUS the guy totally ignores the feelings of the female friend who's been by his side all along, and everyone's actually "okay" with pursuing "Ms. Idealistic American standards for all womenz everywhere" XD

    Especially when the same guy is supposed to be the misunderstood nice guy who's "different from all the other guys"
  • Ohsha
    Most* romances with a nerd protagonist are meant to be escapism. In real life the more attractive guys tended to pair with the more attractive girls (in HS) but in this fantasy the girl hates her jock boyfriend for picking on the nerd (who's kindness turns her on so much) and she goes w/the nerd. We see that the nerd only hates the jock out of spite; he wants to be the jock.

    *Maybe there are exceptions but I can't think of any.
  • Mizu Takishima
    avatar
    Very true =w=;

    Too bad we never see much of the reverse, though.

    Usually the nerdy girl is a hot chick with glasses and she ends up with a nerd-guy who's not even hot, or the girl is average/normal/ugly/ hollywood-ugly and she ends up with a guy who's in the same "league" (or lack there of) as her.

    We never see the nerdy girl end up with the really hot guy XD I may not care about romance, but if you can reccomend a movie like that, I'd like to see it just because it's there lol
  • moonloon
    avatar
    Your second one there is my NUMBER ONE hated character cliche.

    Uhg, "bitchy character that's supposed to be viewed as 'strong' or 'independent'" in general is just so awful. It's my absolute least favorite kind of character, and when I see it in movies and TV I just spend the whole time wishing someone would snap and explain how she's being a complete bitch to everyone around her but they NEVER DO. Because the writers want her to be seen as strong, misunderstood, and "not like the others" by the audience, so all the characters in the film have to see her as such, too. When you bring in love and it makes no sense because this character is quite obviously an awful person, and that awfulness is never noted upon or redeemed in any way, it's even worse.
  • DonGrif  - crap
    I just hate it when movie makers use CGI for simple things like blood splatter. It just looks so fake! Why not use the old fashioned way?
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