Nostalgia Critic - What's with the Princess Hate?

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  • thelordofAWSOMENESS
    well done nostalgia critic (OH MY GOD FIRST COMMENT! I LOVE YOUR VIDEOS!)
  • Ragnorokian
    I'm glad you still get to do more serious videos, I know your probably really tired of always tying to make your fans laugh. Anyway I mostly agree with you on this.
  • LikaLaruku
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    I prefer bitchy, unfeminine, "kick butt & take names" women, who have sweaty dirty jobs, & are chaotic neutral or evil, but not camp evil, or at least a little on the unstable psychotic side.

    I think the real issue is "did they need to be princesses at all?" & to a lesser degree "what's wrong with queens?"

    Princess Ozma is actually an empress, princess Celestia is actually a queen. Real princesses were traditionally just ugly inbred pieces of property who's sole responsibilities were to unite kingdoms & produce heirs.

    The Disney chicks didn't need to be princess to be bad role models. Cinderella was the daughter of a merchant. She could have married anyone to get out of that house, but she sat on her ass for years waiting for the biggest fish in the lake. Aerial abandoned her family & home for a chance at a romance with a total stranger. In the original tale, the prince marries someone else & she commits suicide.

    Who doesn't want to see Peach rescue Mario from Bowser for once? Who doesn't want to see Zelda fight alongside Link?

    You know who the best princess is? Bubblegum from Adventure Time. She's also a mad scientist.

    Hmm...Wasn't beast a Duke? Well, Belle was actually a very good character. I think Gestan & Frollo prove that horny hetero old-fashioned men make better villains than camp gays.
  • alex117  - Agree
    I agree i wish there were more female heroines like that.
  • LikaLaruku
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    You would enjoy the Slayers anime.
  • LikaLaruku
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    Oh no! You just blew up the kingdom you were paid to save....again!
  • Vismutti
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    :D Slayers ROCKS! Lina is AWESOME. I love the fact that she actually wants to be both the delicate, beautiful princess and a badass dark sorceress. And only succeeds in the latter... because yeah, she isn't really the girly type as much as she'd like to pretend so.

    But what I love the most about her that she isn't a "female protagonist" as much as she is a quirky, interesting, funny, egotistical (but secretly good-hearted) and badass antihero who just happens to be a teenage girl. And she's exactly the kind of protagonist I like: she has her issues and weaknesses but they never stop her from being one of the coolest, most badass characters I know. She gets into some seriously desperate situations but she always keeps going and ends up on top somehow, beating enemies way stronger than herself.
    Oh and she's also a smart hero (... or at least clever: not always so smart) too, which I like. She has kind of a nerdy side.
  • pinky75910
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    Sat on her ass? You saw what happened when she tried to go to the ball, you think they'd let her go outside looking like anything remotely resembling a woman and stand to lose their free housekeeper?
  • LikaLaruku  - Part 1
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    She didn't want her more attractive daughter to have a better chance than her own flesh & blood, She'd not have cared if Cinderella married a peasant.

    Here's the La Cenerentola verision of Cinderella, by Gioachino Rossini in 1817. It has no fairies or magic, no forced romance, a fully developed prince, & a superior Cinderella:
    ------------------------- ----------------------
    Once there was a widowed baroness of Montefiascone who had a daughter named Angelina. She remarried to Don Magnifico & the couple had two daughters; Clorinda & Tisbe. The baroness passed away & Magnifico became callous to Angelina; giving her the nickname Cenerentola (Cinderella).

    Don Magnifico's priority was to get his own flesh & blood married off into wealth, because he'd burned through most of the baroness' wealth, & Angelina was significantly prettier than them, so to improve his own daughter's chances, she was downgraded from baronessa to maid. With no fine clothes to wear & no permission from her stepfather to leave the house, Angelina was unable to attend debutante balls & gain suitors.

    Elsewhere, Prince Ramiro has concocted a little scheme with his valet Dandini & his tutor Alidoro. They could have just claimed that the prince was browsing among noble women for wives because inbreeding amongst royalty has seriously messed up their gene pool, but the prince decides that he just doesn't want to marry some haughty gawdy big-spending crabapple; someone he can actually tolerate spending the rest of his life with.

    His plan is to switch places with his Valet & observe how the women react to nonprincely persons, to see the real them & not just the face they put on in the presence of royalty. Actually, it was probably all the Alidoro's plan, since he's also a philosopher.

    Alidoro directs the royal caravan to the homes of bachelorettes he believes are suitable. Alidoro initiates the plan by dressing up as a hobo & asking for a handout. Angelina is in the house cleaning while her sisters bicker & fight over clothing while Alidoro basically lets himself in. Clorinda & Tisbe tell him to hit the road, but Angelina invites him in & gives him her lunch.

    Shortly after, the royal entourage makes a big showy entrance & Dandini enters the house on horseback, being as pompous & clownish as possible. The girls are given invitations to attend a ball for the prince & the bulk of the group leaves. Ramiro & Angelina take an immediate interest in eachother. The sisters start bickering & wake up their father, who tells them he dreamed that they married rich.
  • LikaLaruku  - Part 2
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    Angelina begs to be allowed to go, even for just 15 minutes, but the father refuses. Alidoro reenters in more noble attire & says that according to the books, Don Magnifico has 3 daughters & all of them must attend. The father insists that his 3ed daughter died & that the pretty girl before them is just a lowborn servant. 5 of them get into an argument while Alidoro slips out, but in the end, Angelina is left behind.

    Alidoro returns dressed as the hobo & offers to claim to be her father so she can get in. Angelina says that between their rage, they'd never get past the front door. Alidoro reveals himself as a member of the royal court & says that because she's nice, charitable & suitable, she will return to the palace with him & be loaned a dress, mask, powdered pouf coiffure (wig), white satin heels, & 2 unusual bracelets.

    Ramiro is disappointed that Angelina turned out to be just a maid & therefore ineligible to marry into royalty, so he continues his plan to observe Dandini interact with bachelorettes. They decide to keep their father as drunk as possible to keep him far away. Dandini basically trolls the oblivious sisters the whole time & says that he cannot marry both & suggest one marries his valet. The sisters scoff & proceed to ridicule Ramiro for being beneath them.

    Ramiro & Dandini agree that the women are horrid & try to ditch them while still observing them in secret. They're not particularly pleased with Don Magnifio either, whom Dandini takes particular pleasure in annoying.

    Alidoro shows up with a "mystery woman." Ironically, she honestly looked better in the rags. Dandini spends all his attentions on her, especially to annoy the sisters. Ramiro doesn't recognize her, but her voice reminds him of the cute maid. The sisters & their now sober father quip about how much she looks like Cinderella, but couldn't possibly be her; none of them have that dress for her to steal & she had no method of transportation.

    Angelina ignores the fake prince & starts looking around for the fake valet. Dandini follows her & she tells him that she's not interested & loves his servant. Ramiro appears & said he'd be very interested. Angelina decides to test his loyalty by giving him one of her bracelets & making him search for the girl who wears its twin & walks out on them.

    Don Magnifico follows Dandini to nag about which daughter will be queen. Dandini, tired of the company of the obnoxious man & his horrid daughters, reveals that he is just the valet. It takes awhile for Don Magnifco to be convinced & then he feels insulted & the two get into an argument.

    Back at home, Don Magnifico remembers that his daughters decide to verbally harass Angelina to relieve stress.
  • LikaLaruku  - Part 3.
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    Alidoro never told Ramiro who the mystery woman is, but going off a hope & a voice, he heads straight for Don Magnifico's house. Don Magnifico thinks the prince is giving his daughters a second chance.

    Angelina freaks out when she sees that Dandini & Ramiro have traded clothes & starts to run away. Ramiro catches the glimmer of her bracelet & goes after her. When she agrees to marry him, Don Magnifico & his daughters immediately start screaming at her & pushing, shoving, & whacking her with a cane. Ramiro gets angry & attacks the father. Angelina stops him before Ramiro whacks her father with his own cane.

    She tells Ramiro to let the past slide & let them stew in their own pot, but Ramiro threatens them before he leaves. Alidoro enters & tries to teach the sisters a lesson in humility. When one is willing to try, the other obliges. Still in rags, Angelina is crowned queen. She tells her family that they need to learn to be more humble & thrifty, & if they're willing to do this, they can start over as a proper family. Humiliated, still afraid of Ramiro's wrath, & happy enough to still be related to royalty, the 3 of them agree to become better people.

    The end!
  • TWtch Grimm
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    I've that version of the story a long time ago. Thanks for posting.
  • HanSK
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    Actually, Peach did get her own game in which she saves Mario (Super Princess Peach for the DS)

    And if you count the three terrible CD-i games, two out of three times it was Zelda saving Link (The Wand of Gamelon and Zelda's Adventure)
  • LikaLaruku
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    Unfortunately "sassy holds-her-own-in-battle Zelda" only shows up in noncannon, critically panned media, both Wand of Gamelon & the American cartoon. She's not bad in combat as a sidekick for Link, but Nintendo just won't go there, or give her her own adventure.

    Super Princess Peach was sadly a one-time thing. Peach needs to break away from her usual role & star in her own spinoff series. Mario can find something else to save.

    The closest either get to any real action is the smackdown games.
  • kholdstare13
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    Wouldn't "sassy holds-her-own-in-battle Zelda" be Shiek? She hasn't had her own game, but we are all aware that the super-cool ninja who went around defying the rule of Ganondorf, undermining his armies, laying all the groundwork for the Hero of Time, who was currently locked away with the last piece of the Triforce and the only weapon capable of defeating him, turned out to be her. That's pretty damn badass. Tetra is just as badass. In fact, MOST incarnations of Zelda have fought directly against Ganon, including the original NES version, although that one ends up failing before the game begins. Think of all the Zeldas who weild the power of light alongside Link in the final battles, think of what Skyward Sword Zelda/Hylia does. I expect she will have a starring role not too far off.
  • la_guiri
    i feel the need to ask you what's so positive and inspiring about being a bitch or mentally unstable. is praising that really a step up from praising a woman for being passive and polite? i'm all for women taking more responsibility, but in film that almost always translates into being a despicable person, who for some reason we are supposed to look up to in spite of them being so despicable. it wouldn't be enough for audiences to see peach save mario or zelda save link. she would have to be snarky, rude and belittling to the guy in order for audiences to think she's "strong and independent". this is really unfortunate because all it does is trade in one extreme for the other.
  • Chalice  - Actually.
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    Fan theroy while it can be ignored.

    Celestia may be a real princess yet. in fan theroy her mother would be the queen equestria never sees
    is some cases it's the Fausticorn.

    in others it's another alicorn that has control over planets the same way luna and celestia have control over the sun and moon.

    in others shes Gaia a simple embodiment of equestria.

    last one her mother the queen is the actual sun and shes more of a avatar.

    then again it's fan theory my point is Celestia is a unconfirmed source for your argument sides Diarchy rules.
  • CrunchBogus  - ACTUALLY actually...
    I read about this before. Lauren Faust herself confirmed that Celestia was to have the title of Queen, but Hasbro rejected the idea. They thought that people would associate "queen" with "evil," whereas "princess" would mean "good" - whether this is true or not, it is a self-fulfilling prophecy the way they went about it. She insisted there are no parents to outrank Celestia, but Hasbro didn't care. She fought for it, but lost.

    You can read it in her own words here: http:// comments.deviantart.com/ 4/1603670/1791456540

    Now, I'm a very casual fan of MLP and I have only watched the first three episodes of Season 3. Apparently, Twilight Sparkle has grown wings and elevated to the level of Princess, so maybe they wrote in some explanation - but it's a band-aid over the real issue that started it all, sad to say.
  • WesleyFoxx  - RE: CrunchBogus
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    The pony fandom went completely goddamn RABID over making Twilight a princess. Its probably the biggest fandom shitstorm I've ever personally been in. Checking Derpibooru, almost SEVEN HUNDRED images are tagged as Alicorn Drama. Its finally settled down, more or less, after an entire couple of months, but its not even the first time.

    When they introduced Princess Cadance, again, the fans flipped their collective shits. Until they actually saw the episode (which features the /evil/ Queen Chrysalis, of course. The majority of the fans still absolutely love her and her cheeselegs.) after which most of them calmed their tits. (CR never got over his butthurt)

    However, as Digibrony pointed out in his video on the subject, they pretty much only use the word Princess because it was an executive mandate at the beginning, and the word doesn't mean the same thing as it does to us. They use the word to refer to a winged pegasus who as has been shown in the expanded material, either earns their physical and social status as one through heroic deeds and study, or possibly by being demigods who literally move the sun and moon.
  • 715
    Well Twilight was already a princess due to her brother marrying one, who canon origin is Cadence became a princess the same way Twilight did.

    It would seem in Equestria "princess" is a title you need to earn and not a ruling rank since Twilight and Luna don't run the goverment, while Celestia is queen of Equestria and Cadence is Empress of the crystal Empire
  • 715
    No the main fan theory is that she doesn't go by her Queen title (they can have more than one title you know) is to show she co-rules with her sister.
  • Spiritkitten  - TERIBITHIA!!!! ...god dammit...
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    ACtually in the original story of cinderella, or one of them rather, Cinderella is actually the daughter of a Noble (i.e Prime Minister or something) (and yes, even the Beast in Beauty and the Beast was technically a prince) so it makes a little bit more sense she didn't just go off and marry the first person she met. She was at first raised to take responsibility and had a good idea about who her family would want her to finally marry.

    I'm sure there will always be Princess "hate" but me I don't care. I grew up with the princesses of Disney. They always taught me to follow my dreams and that's what I'm doing. I just need to work around this crazy economy...whew...lol

    Now I want to see you Review Bridge to Teribithia. I legitimately was speechless when that movie ended...I wanted to cry so much...especially when I found out the main girl's fate...(sobs) sorry it struck a chord with me and my little sister...
  • UchaNekome
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    And even then I prefer Marcaline the vampire Queen. Because A she only needs to get saved once and that was from mind control. B She's rad in every sense of the word. C She's a fucking QUEEN and she's not even married! She just took that title down! I mean yeah with all the twilight vampire hype I'm glad to see one of the famed blood suckers didn't go down with the ship. I mean yeah she sucks the red out of things instead of blood. BUT that's fucking creative. At least she still turns into a bat (as well as various other monsters) floats, is undead, and burns in sunlight. Marcie ROCKS!
  • DynoStretch
    LikaLaruku, It's funny you mentioned Peach and Zelda. Peach was the main character of her own DS game Super Princess Peach and she saved Mario from Bowser, and in Legend of Zelda: Spirit Tracks we had Zelda joining forces with Link to recover her stolen body (it's a long story).

    And you were spot on with the Ariel comment. She was even willing to sign a contract in blood (well, vocal cord anyway) with a nefarious sea witch just to get with the guy she barely knew for one night.
  • whowhatwhenwatch  - Who doesn't want to see Peach rescue Mario from Bo
    i must interject here. its been done, Nintendo and all there originality have done this. just waiting on zelda to save link now.
    sry video game nerd here.
    also peach is the mother of bowsers kids - this was brought up in super mario sunshine when her son is trying to "rescue" her from mario and she doesnt deny it. so that bitch is cheating on bowser,into bestiality,and is trying to have her boyfriend save her from her kids. in which baby mario is half brothers with. i am waiting for the whore to start screwing the "toads" of the kingdom.
  • ToastyMozart  - Actually...
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    If you finish Sunshine, you get a cutscene of Bowser telling Bowser Jr. that Peach isn't actually his mother, to which Jr. says he already knows. Presumably Bowser made it up as a motivator for his son.
    That said, the way Peach responded wasn't exactly helping.

    Also, Zelda helped Link in Spirit Tracks, and Peach suddenly becomes a lot more competent whenever Nintendo gets their RPG on (including Super Paper Mario).
  • whowhatwhenwatch  - i lied
    zelda does have games where she saves link so plz strike that from last message. onto more information!
  • ToastyMozart  - UnHistory
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    The CDI -Never Happened-
    Though Spirit Tracks gives her an active part, and Tetra runs a pirate crew.
  • Mia
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    "Cinderella just sat on her ass for years"? Did...did we watch the same movie? Cinderella was emotionally abused by her stepmother and stepsisters [i]for years[/i] and was forced to do all the hard work around the house. The stepmother basically demeaned and dehumanised Cinderella at every opportunity(hell, the stepmother, if I remember correctly,was the one who [i]named[/i] her Cinderella in the first place!). Cinderella couldn't just get out of the house - Lady Tremaine probably wouldn't have even allowed Cinderella to leave the house in the first place.

    I do agree that Princesses shouldn't be the [i]only[/i] role models for young girls. I'd love to see some non-princess(or hell, a movie with a queen for a main protagonist!)Disney Heroines.
  • jellybabiebunny
    The queen from Brave. She's a good guy who saved the day in the end.
  • ToastyMozart  - Well
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    If you count Super Princess Peach, it happened once. Otherwise, in Super Mario RPG and Super Paper Mario, Peach fights alongside the others and in the first 2 Paper Marios she at least sneaks around and provides intel to the main group (and comes close to escaping in the second).

    In Spirit Tracks, Zelda('s spirit) fights alongside Link and possesses phantoms (though it might lose points for her still being afraid of rats despite being the Nintendo version of Alphonse Elric). And she stays one step ahead of you for the first few dungeons in Skyward Sword.
    Also, Tetra.
  • tommygun888
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    hell yes!!!
    you know i never thought about that but now that i have she definetly is the best princess
  • Greenjackspeaks
    to be fair, a queen is the undisputed singular ruler of the land(when no king is present, or in a matriarchal society) so princess celestia, caring for her sister, and trying to keep hope that she would one day be brought back to her senses and rule alongside her once more as an equal; which would make her being the queen impossible. she kept the title out of respect for her sister.
  • luvira
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    You're kinda forcing it there. That's you filling in your own answer and not what happens in the story. It still perpetuates that princesses are more appealing than queens.
  • Elphaba645
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    Yeah except the awesome thing about AT is that the most awesome one is for once a queen (Marceline) even though she doesn't do any queenly stuff. Also, I'm forgiving of Jasmine because it's not her movie, it's Aladdin's, it's CALLED Aladdin. I kind of view her as a plot device, a reason to make Aladdin wish to be a prince. Aladdin has plenty of character for me, so I don't really mind it when she doesn't have much character. If it were CALLED Jasmine, or even Aladdin and Jasmine, then it would bother me a lot more.
  • Blacksky  - .
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    If you want an example of girls becoming good queens, look no further than Narnia. Not really any princesses there.
  • Ubberific  - Dat wall
    You're just flatout trolling now aren't you :/
  • thelordofAWSOMENESS
    nope :/ This is literally my first (ever) comment on his video. Hell the first comment on this site!
  • caligirl
    Whoa.Blue. I like it. By the way I pretty much agree with NC's opinion. So all in all great vid.
  • thelordofAWSOMENESS
    Dude you have great videos and I want to say this: BRING THE WALL BACK (couldn't help it) AND NEVER TRY TO KILL OFF THE NC AGAIN!
  • Zorro4k6
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    Great video Doug. I agree with everything you said. There are plenty of princesses and females in general that do work very hard in movies and etc. You hit the nail on the head with the beauty thing. I think it basically comes down to the fact that for a while, women always stayed home and took care of the house and family. As such, I think we associated them with not as much responsibility as the men had working in factories and so forth. So it just became a habit of associating Princess with that demographic.

    Whatever the reason, this was great. Although I haven't really heard anyone hate on princesses before though.
  • minnie3434
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    Only a couple princesses annoyed however I like some. Also about the whole Feminist who freak out about princesses and woman who prefer to stay home. You are not true feminist. A true feminist believes a woman can do whatever she wants to choose. True feminist believe that if a woman wants to be a stay at home mom than that's her choice. A feminist is about having the right to choose.
  • Sakuradrops
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    Well said and I agree whole heartedly!
  • Razvigor  - ...
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    NC, you must also note that Princess DOESN'T always mean ''the daughter of the King''.
    You see, there are 2 titles of Prince:
    1. Prince - a monarch's son, heir to the throne
    2. Prince - a ruler of Principality, a lower-tier state than Kingdom or Empire

    Many historical countries in Europe were Principalities, ruled by Princes.
    The wife of that Prince is called a Princess (like Queen to a King).

    Now, there are also instances where a woman was in charge of a Principality.
    That woman would bear the title of PRINCESS - a ruler of Principality, as a state.

    Two titles of the same name - BUT COMPLETELY DIFFERENT.
    And easily confused too.
  • DangerousLoki
    This is a bit of a stretch as it's clear that most of the princesses in question are the daughters of a king. However it is important to remember that the princess phenomnon began with Disney and in the early disney movies about the characters the term made sense. Snow White was a princess and her Step-mother was queen. Cinderella became a princess by marrying a prince. Sleeping Beauty's parents were still alive when she was pricked and possibly when she awakend. The only time it doesn't make sense is in Beauty and the Beast, as I'm fairly certain Beast's parents are dead making him King and not a Prince.

    In any case, it's a bit of a "Disney made the term Princess marketable" and everyone has sort of been trying to capitalize on it sense. Like anything else.

    I also never wanted to be King.
  • anonymousdratini
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    Beast could be the ruler of a principality, since they are deadsmack in France, that's probably true.
  • Ricchan
    That is a very interesting fact, this terminology is also present in french as well italian, though not in german, where the "Prinz" is execlusivly the son of a monarch, whough not necessarily a king/queen.

    As it seems, the use from the terms Prince/Princess as a monarchs offspring comes from the habituns of those, to give their children a principality to "train" for their heritage, actually making them princes that way, especially the title of "princess" was not very common back then.

    I very much thank you Razvigor for pointing that out.
  • Razvigor  - ...
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    @DangerousLoki
    Well, about the Beauty and Beast - maybe Beast was the Prince of a Principality (either as a part of a Kingdom, or a completely independent Principality), and not a son to the King.

    @Ricchan
    You are welcome!
    As you noted, the Prince's title was well known in the lands of the Western Europe - where Princes were mostly vassals of the Kings, placed in charge of the certain regions within the Kingdom (Principalities).

    However, there were also fully independent countries (mostly in Eastern Europe) that called themselves Principalities, and their ruler was called The Prince.
    For example, Russia and Serbia were Principalities, ruled by Princes, untill they became Empire and Kingdom (Russia in 18th century, Serbia in 13th century).
    What's interesting is that the title of the Prince survived even then:
    Rulin Prince became a King.
    His vassals became Princes.
  • Doresh
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    That's a pretty confusing double-meaning of prince/princess.

    Thankfully, we have the term "Fürst/Fürstin" in Germany to avoid this confusion XD
  • Lyaso
    I would say that depends on what kind of feminism you're talking about, as with all things, not everyone defines it the same way. There are those who identify as feminists who are against housewivery because they are power inversionists (this is mostly second wave). There are also the people who are not feminists who either pose as strawman feminists to make actual feminists look crazy or declare that all feminists are against housewivery and such gender roles (which is patently false) to make the argument that feminism is bad and that all women should just stick to the roles that they've been given. I've seen a great deal of both, but the media hardly ever gives voice to the viewpoint you just stated.
  • cvrpapc
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    precisely. but this isn't about feminism..really.

    princess = innocence, virginal, untouched


    its all about sex.
  • embercoral
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    Doesn't everything eventually boil down to sex?
  • PurpleTiger
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    Only to you men.

    Perverts.

    (that was a joke, if you couldn't tell)
  • Laxpolilla
    I think the freak out about stay at home princesses on the feminists part is more of their portrayal in the media. Of course every woman has the right to choose-no real feminist argues that-but the media continues to portray women in "tradtional female roles" such as stay at home mothers, house keepers, bakers, hair stylists, elementary school teachers, florists, etc. Or they go the complete opposite route and the woman is sexualized, psychotic, and evil.

    There isn't a problem with either side individually; it's only a problem that this is a common theme among women in movies. It gives the impression that a woman SHOULD have that kind of role, and that has a very subtle kind of damage to it.
  • idodo15
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    good video
  • idodo15
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    like every female on an animated movie is a princess
  • Caelbain  - Well,
    the pleading for premium felt a liiiiittle weak at the end, but otherwise an enjoyable video.
  • thelordofAWSOMENESS  - Terebithia
    I'msorrybut I love that film. I was younger when I saw but not that young but I didn't try to spot plot holes, poor character development, or that important stuff, but instead just sat and enjoyed. Hell it's one of my favorite films even though 'm 14 I still thinks it's nice. True it has an ungodlu ammount of problems now that it's thought of but still it' an enjoyable peice
  • Cazekiel
    Fantastic review. I'll always love my Briar Rose, but everything else is so spot-on.
  • fox_metro  - Well that's different
    Someone studied psychology. I don't know how anyone could have expressed their opinion any better, but I'm sure a low IQ out there is still gonna be hatin. I thought it was rather thought provoking.
  • Xonxt
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    You raise an interesting point.
    The title of Princess is really just more marketable, because Queens in movies are usually evil, while the Princess - is a heroine.
    As an example, I should mention My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic. In the show, the land is ruled by a Princess. The author originally wanted her to be a Queen, but she was told to change her to a Princess for the aforementioned reasons.
    Although that doesn't change the fact, that she is still a thousand year old immortal near-omnipotent Goddess of the Sun. :D
  • TheRealSolitair
    Oh, absolutely. Celestia is the worst instance of this phenomenon I've seen in a long time because she doesn't look, sound, or act like a princess at all. Yeah, most of the time she relies on her student and company to solve crises, but she does that with the role of a boss or a mentor, not a damsel in distress. It really bugs me and I haven't seen a fan come up with a good theory on why she has that title. Urgh.
  • EternityEyes
    avatar
    I have a theory that she has the title because she shared power with Luna, and later other princesses, and they consider themselves equal while having different roles to make up a whole.

    And please do Bridge to Terebithia. I honestly cried for at least three hours when I saw it, because that's all that movie wants you to do. Everything that happens in that movie only happens so you'll cry more when the movie wants you to (and it WANTS you to). I know that the book that it was based on was written because SPOILERS! theauthor'sson' sfrienddiedthehelloutofno whereinreallife, but from a narrative story-telling perspective, that's a cheap shot. I mean, I'm all for putting your characters through the worst possible things as a catalyst for development and plot and theme, but there's a HUGE difference between that and Glurge.
  • ColeYote
    avatar
    I agree, Bridge to Terabithia was godawful. I didn't cry, but there's only so much hack writing you can take in one sitting. Horror can't get away with developing characters *just* enough for you to (theoretically) feel bad when they die, why should kids' films?
  • luvira
    avatar
    That's a good way to hide spoilers in a post.
  • Truxillogical
    avatar
    IIRC, Faust wanted to maker her a Queen, but Hasbro wanted the marketable "princess" title.

    I'm trying to think of good Queens in movies, and only coming up with Elanor, Susan, and Lucy.
  • Coolclaytony  - There is one word that answers your question frien
    Principality.
    Real-world example: The Prince of Wales.
  • kshade
    avatar
    Yeah, that sucks quite a lot. Although I can see her purposefully not taking the title of Queen to indicate that she is, in fact, not a ruler who runs the country but more of a benevolent force of good (that is also at least a demigod).
  • ackbarfan5556  - Leia
    avatar
    Are we now confirming that Princess Leia is now a Disney Princess? Cuz that is awesome! Rapunzel has nothing on a Jedi Princess!
  • embercoral
    avatar
    Yeah, I'm still headdesking about that...
  • ladydiskette
    avatar
    The Princess Leia's lineage was kinda iffy if you asked me, but I think it was because she was adopted into royalty than born into it given the circumstances.
  • embercoral
    avatar
    Cinderella wasn't born into royalty. :/
  • TwistedEllipses
    avatar
    Leia was in weird position of being born into it AND being adopted into it. Technically Naboo's royalty is elected, but her mother would have given her clout in the same way as George W.Bush got some from his father being a previous president. But since hardly anyone knew that...I'm rambling aren't I?

    Since the prequels had a leader who was a Queen (Amidala), does this mean this is actually something the prequels got right and the original trilogy got wrong?
  • Fulchrum
    You are kidding, right? The Prequels are by a gigantic margin more feminist-friendly than the original movies. Every single one of the sequels fails the Bechdel test,while episodes 1, 2 and 3 all pass with flying colours.

    And the prequels didn't feel the need to demean women by having the queen dress up in a gold bikini.
  • CC*
    avatar
    well,i'd say Leia is a good example of "strong independent woman" (the good kind,not the Alice of resident evil kind)

    well Padme had the personality of drift wood

    so that's something for the original trilogy
  • Miniature
    I guess that's a pretty good proof that the Bechdel test is far from perfect. Amidala did what was needed of her by the plot, and nothing else. She might not have failed the Bechdal test, but she failed as a character.

    A bad character is bad, regardless of whether they're a bad male character, or a bad female character.

    Also, if you recall, Leia strangled to death the most notorious Crime Lord on Tattooine, while wearing said Gold Bikini. And what's more, she used the chains he bound her with. Leia was a Badass. In one of the first scenes in the Trilogy, she freaking killed a stormtrooper, and sacrificed herself so that the Death Star Plans just *might* get into the hands of people who could take the Empire down.

    When captured, she looked the most intimidating Generals of the Empire in the face, and Snarked at them. She was tortured and interrogated, then faced the complete and utter annihilation of her homeworld, and still had the will to lie about the location of the rebel base. That's conviction. Also, when she was rescued, *she* was the one who pointed out that they were probably going to be followed. She was intelligent, determined, and capable. If Han Solo had killed a room full of kids, she probably would have shot him in the face.
  • Truxillogical
    avatar
    Ignoring the prequels and all that...

    Princess Leia was the Princess of Alderaan. As of about half an hour into Episode IV, there is no Alderaan anymore. So while now there are no more steps between her and the throne, there's also no throne.

    So how's she supposed to upgrade to Queen? Probably just kept the Princess title out of tradition or for some kind of diplomatic edge.
  • Gadzinisko
    avatar
    I never thought why exactly Leia is a princess, but I guess at the start it was more an (maybe unintentional) homage to fairy tales, that Star Wars is based on... But well, "prequel tilogy" (omg, i so hate it) introduced queen, damn those movies... I usually pretend they don't exist.

    Answering the question why she isn't a queen after the death of her (adopted) father and entire family... Well, there isn't much to be ruler of. Alderaan was destroyed, remember? She may remain "princess", but it's hard to organize crowning when there is no ground to place the throne.
  • Fulchrum
    Its called being a queen in exile.
  • Gadzinisko
    avatar
    Nevertheless, there is nothing to be on exaile from.
  • embercoral
    avatar
    Well, that can either be really good or really bad. It all depends on where they go with the plot...and the merchandising...and the random, unnecessary spinoff series they'll probably make at some point.
  • ecyor0
    avatar
    Jedi Princess who fell dangerously close to the dark side in the Expanded Universe, no less :P
  • Spiritkitten
    avatar
    Well Disney does now own the rights to the Star Wars franchise...
  • ManWithGoodTaste
    avatar
    People have the right to hate stupid things.
  • You_smell_of_Elderberries  - Agreed
    avatar
    I agree very much so, but I suppose in the end we have different views about specifics, so I shan't bring it up.

    In other news: Thanks for introducing me to Siskel & Ebert ;D been watching their reviews quite often
  • embercoral
    avatar
    Yeah, my mother would never approve of a premium membership, Doug...She's just another evil queen in disguise.

    My boyfriend plans on building an actual castle on this large space of farmland his family bought for future living. We'll pretend that we're a duke and duchess. It's not quite high royalty (and not even in Europe), but it's close enough for us to be satisfied.
  • Daspammerguy  - well at least its not lower
    you could've been made a baron and baroness instead though. at least you arent all that low on the royalty scale. and duke/duchess is pretty high up since you can find other things lower.
  • embercoral
    avatar
    Again, it's just pretend (my boyfriend thought of it; I'm just going along with it because I think it's pretty cool). All we'd be ruling are some crops...and some rabbits. Lots of rabbits.
  • embercoral
    avatar
    What if the Princess was evil and the Queen was good?
    ...
    Royal Exorcism?
  • DangerousLoki
    Interestingly there have been just as many good Queens as there have been Evil Princesses. Though it's rare that the good Queen is the protagonist. Meridia's mother isn't evil for example. There's a few others. Likewise. Evil princesses aren't unheard of though the protagonist is usually a commoner of some sort.
  • embercoral  - I don't see why not.
    avatar
    Why not have the queen as the protagonist? The responsibility of the nation as well as her daughter (or children) could create some interesting plot threads...it'd be like Lincoln (Steven Spielburg movie, not the vampire hunter), only more fantasy-based.
  • Daspammerguy  - hm
    i'd like to see an evil princess plotting murder of her family by assassination. then a better assassin try to stop her and the assassin because he is being paid by her royal servant who found out and figured if he said anything to the king he would be killed and likely not believed. then maybe the assassin does kill the princess. maybe she calls the guards but she is killed and then left before the guards arrive to find her body slumped on the floor with her neck sliced open. it'd be a good assassin conspiracy movie.
  • DMaster
    Never see them interact at all, but...Avatar's Azula and her mom?
  • Kurvos
    avatar
    I think it could indeed be a good thing to just stop with the stupid Princess bullshit. Like Princess Celestia in My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic for instance. She's so obviously a Queen - but for some stupid reason, Hasbro forced them to call her a Princess. Probably simply because girls assume Queens always are evil, but... that just gives a bigger reason why she should be referred to as a Queen, so all kids will get that Queens aren't always evil.
    And all this Princess escapism of not doing anything and letting a brave knight save them... what does that lead to? Well... if it's a woman who's not mentally stable, and who's into writing novels... you get Twilight. :P
  • choninja21  - New Name
    From now on I'm doing to call Walt Disney "D-Man"
  • Burntfur
    avatar
    There were so many good points in this video. I think I agree with all of them XD I've always been confused about this female stereotype. When I was little, I wanted to be the queen!
  • embercoral
    avatar
    So did others think you were evil, based on the stereotype you don't even follow?
  • Jaaackal
    Oh God YES!! Review Bridge to Taribithia!! That movie was all up in your face with it's symbolism and it disgusted me!!!
  • ladydiskette
    avatar
    NO ITS TOO MUCH FOR HIM!

    HE CAN'T GO IN THERE ALONE WITHOUT A BOOK REVIEWER! HE WILL BE EATEN ALIVE! D':
  • Burntfur
    avatar
    Ha ha! Everyone still thinks I'm evil! (lightning bolt in background)
  • embercoral
    avatar
    And it's so easy when you're evil! *puts on fedora*
  • SlyDante
    avatar
    In defense of Vanellope (BTW Doug, you accidentally kinda spoiled part of the ending there), she's a video game character, & didn't really have a choice, as she was pretty much programmed to be a princess as a fictional character to help sell a video game...which, come to think of it, just confirms your point about using the title to attract kids. In fact, the part where she actually pretty much REJECTS the title after getting her memories back.

    Which if you think about, it kinda seems like that part of the film was a little bit of meta commentary on princesses as a whole. In fact, it actually ties it perfectly with the film's theme of not letting labels define who you really are. Which again just proves how Wreck-It Ralph was a kickass film.

    I also got to thinking about Adventure Time for a moment...How practically every female ruler on the show is a princess in one way or another. One could say it's general satire, & just putting a twist on classic fairy tale & adventure tropes...but I always theorize that the post-apocalyptic Land of Ooo was primarily built around the remains of our pop culture, with the land seemingly built around video game tropes, hip-hop slang, fairy tales '80s action films & such. And if future dwellers were to find all of these stories discussed here, what conclusion might they come to? That princesses were the rightful, virtuous, & powerful rulers of everything, & thus that's what they feel they should base rulers around.

    Heck, the only prominent queen is Marceline, whom unlike the princesses, is a 1,000-plus year-old young woman who's obviously had a millennium to study up more on past history & pop culture. She's arguably smart & researched enough to know that queens are the higher-ups, & why she kind of mocks the more regal features of characters like Bubblegum.

    ...Of course, all of this is equally just spouting off nonsense. Great video, Doug! ^_^
  • Cinnamon Scudworth
    avatar
    Hmm. I never thought of it that way, Doug, but I do know WHY princesses are popular: they're the living embodiment of everything girly, which is a fascination that will never be fully suppressed no matter who has a problem with it. It's survived for centuries and it always will. I think it's possible for a little girl to love princesses and have ambition, frankly. There's nothing wrong with a little fantasy.

    And this trend of boys wanting to be kings? Show it to me. Where are the boys dressing like kings? How come children's media doesn't drown us in kings? If there was a market for it like there is for princesses, it'd be exploited. Part of it is totally that princesses have less responsibility, but that allows them to do anything. Kings and queens don't have that freedom.

    Also, "princess" is a pretty word. "Queen" isn't. I seriously think this is part of it. Note that heiresses are always in the media yet heirs are never talked about. There's no pretty suffix at the end of "heir."
  • Swanpride
    Actually, Disney originally had this attraction in the park where girls could dress up as princesses...but then the boys were unhappy, because they wanted to dress up, too, as princes, to be exact. So they changed it and now the boys are allowed to dress up as princes, too...but I guess, they grow out of it faster than the girls.
  • Lieju
    avatar
    The thing that annoyed me about princesses as a kid was that I was expected to like them, and even when I asked for monster-toys and turtles-toys, I still got barbies and princesses. (Who then would get chased by dinosaurs)

    Or some God-awful super-cute diosaurs that didn't even look cool. I was flat-out told 'I know you said you wanted a monster-toy, so we went through all this trouble to find a 'monster' that suitable for little girls'...

    I was also really offended at the fairy tales like the Sleeping beauty, although as a little girl I couldn't really tell why, but it was the whole 'has to marry the guy she doesn't even know and who sexually assaulted her while she was unconscious' that I found creepy.

    My favourite toy, however, was a LEGO dragon, who was the queen of dragons. I never even considered that she should be a princess, no, she was the ruler. Eventually her wings got so loose I took them off and since then she was a politician, a manipulator and a leader. I still have her on my desk.

    (She also has a husband, but he was never really a ruler. he was more of a supporting character.)

    I generally just didn't like Disney-movies as a kid, I was more into books and inventing my own characters and worlds. Or changing the existing ones to be girls. Like deciding the LEGO-dragon was a female, or that Leonardo from the turtles was a girl, because I just thought that at least one of the turtles must be a girl. And blue was my favourite colour and (s)he had the coolest weapons.

    The only 'princess' (apart form Jasmine, maybe) I liked was Pocahontas, and only for the character I made her into (as I thought the movie was dumb). My Pocahontas-doll would go on adventures to find mystical artefacts and fight Godzilla.
  • dclark
    Why would you show me clips and pictures of Tangled and Rapunzel, are you trying make me horny? Not that it worked.....excuse me a second....
  • CC*
    avatar
    dude i'm sure there are people who also like Rapunzel (probably doug too)

    but seriously WTF
  • Chubzhac
    Wait, why is the wall blue?
  • embercoral
    avatar
    Awkward lighting? I'm pretty sure it's still white. It was like that in the Pearl Harbor review, too.
  • ladydiskette
    avatar
    I don't have a issue with the Disney Princess thing, but just that some of the characters they use bother me because in context it makes no sense: Mulan, Alice, just to name a few.

    They are not princesses, they're popular characters that are in their own way awesome, but they're not princesses. Its like the people behind the Disney Princesses slapped a title over them just because of lazyness.

    That was always the part that bothered me.
  • GomJabber11
    avatar
    I know, right. I've got nothing against Mulan or Alice, but I've always wondered why they're just thrown in there with the princesses? Meanwhile, actual princesses like Eilonwy and Kairi (Kingdom Hearts) remain untouched.
  • dclark
    yay you found a way to fit in Jennifer Lawrence, Michonne, and Arya. Three girls from three things I love (hint: one of them is not the Hunger Games)
  • Silverviper2134  - Bridge to Terabithia
    While I do admit I think it's weird that at the end, the brother was a King and the sister a Princess, I really like that movie. It wasn't perfect, but I liked it.
  • embercoral
    avatar
    Well, I'm guessing the book's ending is just as strange. Perhaps I should read it, just out of curiosity...
  • Daspammerguy  - doesnt that actually work though?
    since the king would have his own wife who'd be queen rather than have his sister be queen. unless they're... gross.
  • embercoral
    avatar
    Actually, I think that it's just the brother wanting his little sister to be included in his world. More princess=youth stuff.

    Plus (correct me if I'm wrong), when the eldest prince becomes king, his siblings are usually still princes and princesses unless they get married themselves. So in a way, it does make sense.
  • DMaster
    To whit: Naaarrrnia...
  • lunarotaku
    avatar
    Maybe it has to do with a king and queen usually being a married?
  • fanime1
    avatar
    As a feminist fan of yours, let me say you are almost spot on in this editorial. I actually wondered this question myself and researched for an answer. Yes, queens are often the villains because for most of human history, women in power were seen as evil. Honestly, the Salem Witch trials tended to target people, especially women, who were out of the norm. In other words, women who seemed "too powerful," and so must be using witchcraft! So you were right when you said that being a princess associates with youth, innocence, and honestly, submitting to others. Yes, princesses have power, but not much, especially if you look at real princesses in the past. They were traditionally seen as prizes and marrying one gives to access to rule. So, I agree that there should be more good queens in media. In fact, Lauren Faust really wanted Princess Celestia to be Queen. The only reason Celestia is "princess" is because Hasbro said that princesses were more marketable and queens in the media are associated with evil, which leads me to a point you missed.
    In my research, I found feminists don't hate the princesses so much, but how the market portrays them. For example, Mulan (Disney's most feminist princess) in the movie didn't like her kimono outfit and found it uncomfortable and it's only seen in the beginning of the film. And YET, most of the toys of her showed her in that outfit as opposed to her warrior one. Now let's look at Pixar's princess and, in my opinion the most feminist one, Merida. The costumes and toys sold at Target again emphasized on the outfit and stuff she hated. While one doll came with a bow and arrow, it also came with fake jewels, so you can make her all "purty" and shit, which is NOT her character in the slightest. So while honestly the media is becoming more female progressive, toys are way behind compared to it. Look at Legos, which used to be so sexless, now there are "legos for boys" and "legos for girls." Look at toys from ten years ago and now, and look at female films ten years ago and now and you see toys have not changed at ALL, but movies slowly are. And the reason princesses are most targeted is because their toys promote a glamorous lifestyle, with toy vanity sets, brushes, make-up, dresses, jewels, etc. Whereas boys get nerf guns and swords. That's what I found feminists most hate about princesses. But at least the films are making good progress.
    P.S. Actually, I watched Cinderella recently, and she actually has a subtle attitude! XD
  • Sakuradrops
    avatar
    That's funny that I actually did notice that with Legos and other toys recently as well. Also lets not forget the fact that the "Lego's for boys" set usually has something to do with them doing some kind of cool job like a police men, fire men, and working in the state park or something like that. Whereas the "Lego set for girls" is a bunch of girls being friends and hanging out in the various sets they give them. whether its swimming, sleep over, or hanging out at the local juice bar the girls aren't really doing much else besides being friends. I noticed that in other toys as well, boys get missions and jobs and some kind of objective that they have to complete where as girls are given every day type of things like dog sitting or clothing or babies or stuff like that. They aren't given a job or objective at all and that's the one thing that always turned me off of the girl toys when I was younger. I'd much rather be a spy or a super hero than a dog sitter or...someone else's best friend. Why do girls get the every day mediocre stuff while boys get to be super heroes, spies, and anything else they can come up with? Why are boys encouraged to do all the heroic stuff while girls are encouraged to stay on the sidelines. Personally if I could I would make a company that would have toys for girls as well, where they could be super heroes, police women, spies, and anything else they want to be as well. But enough of my rant...I guess I care more about this subject than I realized... ^.^;
  • WhistleAndSnap
    avatar
    I hear ya man. I hear ya. When I was a little girl, I wanted to be a Jedi (still kind of do, actually)
  • James Picard
    Is there a little kid who didn't? Because they're either Trekkies, or just strange.
  • Truxillogical
    avatar
    I didn't want to be a Jedi.

    I wanted to be a spacer, like Han Solo.


    (I also wanted to be Dr. McCoy's sidekick, so there's that.)
  • Zachary Amaranth
    avatar
    It's even better when you consider Lego claims to have spent millions researching this to better address the way girls play.
  • Truxillogical
    avatar
    Seriously? Did they?

    Because y'know every nerdy girl I've ever talked to who had My Little Pony toys? Every single one of us put on epic tales of political intrigue and battles. I...I guess that's just how girls play?

    I mean, seriously, Lego, girls LOVE dragons. Make some girl dragon-rider sets or something.
  • WitchoftheWest
    I know what you mean! I remember when I was little, I had a bunch of horse figurines (not my little pony ones, though). But I also had a whole bunch of dinosaur ones too.

    So, being a little girl, what did I do with these toys? I pitted them against each other and had the horses and dinosaurs go in all-out wars with each other. I'd line them up, the dinosaurs on one side and the horses on the other- face to face. And then they'd fight!

    And I'd also create events that happened before the battles, how the horses and the dinosaurs were planning there battle tactics, as well as just their everyday lives and relationships with each other within their groups.

    So yeah, apparently their research is rather lacking.
  • Ebalance
    I had a bunch of baby dolls, dumped them when my mom had my brother, dumped the barbies when my brother discovered Star Wars, and got totally into Sailor Moon. Barbie saves Ken.

    I love Sailor Moon, there was a show that really was good for girls. It really went all out on developing how you could be young, be who you are, like guys, but not have to depend on them all the time, and still cook, and do "girly things" as well as kick-ass in style. The whole mini-skirt thing never has, and never will bother me.
    It's a great show for girls. You can be a princess, be loving and caring, and kick ass at the same time. I think it's about growing up and learning to be that you can be a "mother bear" when you need to be, that the power to be brave does not exclude the ability to be kind and to understand that others are suffering, and that suffering can lead to violent behavior.
    Everyone should learn to be more understanding of the pain of others, not just women.

    BTW Doug, thanks for that pic of Queen Beryl.

    I also loved dinasaurs when I was little. I was kinda obsessed with The Land Before Time.
  • Truxillogical
    avatar
    Actually--and I hate the Legos for Girls thing--my buddy who is an avid Lego collector is kind of jealous of the sets because almost every wave of "town sets" has the same old stuff. His running joke is apparently Lego is a police state, because darn it, if he had all the sets, the city would have a police station of every corner.

    Meanwhile, the "girls" sets of Lego get things like a karate dojo and a science lab. Back in the day, Lego had regular things like pizza parlors and beach houses, but less so now, apparently.

    My problem with the "Lego for Girls!" sets is that:
    A) They aren't compatible with regular Lego sets. There's no reason for them not to be.

    And this is the big one:

    B) Almost everything in them is prefabricated. There is very little actual BUILDING that goes into assembling a Lego For Girls set. Mostly, it's just a snap-together doll house.

    And that's stupid.
  • disneyboy20022  - Vanellope
    avatar
    Vanellope turned down being a Princess because she wanted to stay the way she is.

    Other than that little nitpick, I agree with this editorial 100 percent
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