Game of Thrones S4E4

(128 votes, average 4.83 out of 5)
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Comments (82)
  • ShadowHand
    Really this was a revelation?
    The moment they introduced the babies being given to white walkers I predicted that white walkers turned them into white walkers
  • Lostshadows
    *Spoiler* Well, the White Walker thing is actually hinted at in the books. If any of Crastor's wives had a son, he was left out in the wilderness as a sacrifice. Exposure and wild animals were not the only possible fates.

    Though since some of the White Walkers are reanimated dead people, does that mean the babies don't age? Or do the dead people continue to age?
  • KainGerc
    the white white walkers and the undead are two separate things(the white walkers seem to be controlling the undead).
  • KaizerJED
    The White Walkers (aka the Others) are living creatures, despite their appearance. The zombies are their slave soldiers, the wights.
  • alejokatana  - They don´t really looks like zombies
    They´re not naked, stupid, covered in blood, dacaying, etc
  • Guild Navigator
    Book readers (but nobody else),you might wat to read this:

    http:// index.php/Night%27s_King
  • Lightice
    The White Walkers are demons made of ice. The babies are the template, so to speak, but when they're finished there's almost nothing human about them. They are not undead.
  • Grampagohan  - Not rape
    That last episode wasn't rape she wanted it. Yes it was a little forceful but it didn't cross the line into rape
  • alejokatana  - Really Todd?
    That wasn´t rape, and anybody who carefully did read the books and understand the characters would know it. So the nostalgia chick being childish about that, being completely ignorant about these chacraters, I can understand, but you Todd, did you read the books or the cliff notes?
    PS Cercei deserves to be raped and tortured by the entire six sons and the dothraki army.
  • CaptainCanada
    It wasn't rape in the books, but the changes they made to it in the show made it into rape, even though the creators clearly did not realize it.
  • Lightice
    At this point we can chalk that scene to poor editing. I wouldn't be surprised if the DVD release got a few seconds of material that ended up in the cutting room floor a superfluous that changes the mood of the scene entirely.

    That being said, even in the book it's arguably rape on Jamie's part. It's pretty clear that he isn't going to take "no" for an answer, he just happens to be lucky enough that Cersei does eventually say "yes".
  • Strejdaking
    Holy fuck, this series appeals to lots of disgusting people. Fuck off. NOBODY deserves to be raped.
  • alejokatana  - Really?
    If I asked you, does Hitler deserve to be raped?, you will answer yes, so please, be honest
  • Grampagohan
    Also alot of these nights watch people use to be murderers and rapists and the like and got sent to the wall
  • Arkantos  - Dany the Baddy
    Crucifying those slavers was not the right thing to do in any way. She had no proof that those were the actual guys who did it, she essentially did what the Nazis did in concentration camps to the friends & family of those who escape.
    As Tywin says, if a man bends the knee you must help him back to his feet, or no one will ever bend the knee again. Do you think any slavers will surrender to her after what she did to the ones she captured?

    As for the white walkers, is that their only way of reproducing? How did the race ever come about if they can only be created by transforming human babies?
  • alejokatana  - Kinda irrelevant?
    She already slaughtered 20% of its population, men, women, elderly and children alike, what difference makes some torture?
  • alejokatana  - Thre are also pure evil guys
    Cercei is pure evil for example, Stalin, Hitler, etc were pure evil, Bush family are all pure evil, most soldiers go to war to pillage, rape and murder children, wouldn´t you call them pure evil too?
  • Lightice
    Er, hell no. People don't proceed to go to war to do horrible things out of evilness of their heart. They are piled up with horror and PTSD and eventually take it out on somebody. And the people back at home don't have a clue of the actual conditions of the battlefield and only see the casualties as numbers; it's even easier to do horrible things to people when they only exist on paper.
  • alejokatana  - Yeah sure
    Ask that to those marines bragging about raping children, don´t make excuses for your child murderer rapist brother/father/boyfriend/ whatever.
  • alejokatana  - Night´s watch
    Most people on the night´s watch are murderers and rapist, what do you expect?
  • Swarmcrow
    agree, the real surprise is it didn't happen earlier
  • Nizwiz
    GOT has been sucking more than a cheap hooker with a drug habit lately.
  • Swarmcrow
    ...ok can we stop talking about Jamie and cersei sex scene , SHE was kissing him back several times.. it wasn't rape .. we also know the people making the show weren't trying to make a rape scene but a sex scene ... so lets stop talking about it roll with the show
  • KaizerJED
    Brienne looks awesome in her new custom armor and valyrian steel sword. I look forward to her journeys w/ wide-eyed and bushy tailed Pod. As for Jaime, I just pretend that rape scene didn't happen, as it's the only way I can continue to enjoy his arc. It's clear the show's runners didn't intend on that being taken the way it was (kinda stupid of them really).

    You guys realize that Grey Worm and Missandei can never be a couple. Grey Worm is Unsullied, and all Unsullied are eunuchs. It would be a very chaste relationship. Even still it's cute to see the two of them interact, as the characters are clearly into one another.

    Thank the Seven that they added some meat to Bran's story arc. I mean, it could have done w/o the rape (I mean c'mon Game of Thrones, enough is enough...), but at least something is happening. Just don't have them rape Meera, that would be too much. And the stuff w/ the Others was awesome. As a reader of the books it felt good to be taken by surprise by something.

    I'm gonna miss Lady Olenna. Diana Rigg is such a joy to watch. I'm surprised you didn't talk about how the murder of Joffrey wasn't just Olenna's doing, but a joint effort between her and Littlefinger (whose plot line w/ Sansa you also forgot to mention). Oh well, at least we've got Margaery manipulating poor, innocent Tommen.
  • CaptainCanada
    Well, there's other ways to have sex, if they wanted to be together.
  • alejokatana  - Hell yes,
    Like with anybody but your own brother or sister, disgusting, people should go old testament on them.
  • MutheSquirrel
    The Jaime stuff doesn't really bother me. He's not really a good guy you know. He tried to kill a child and strangled his cousin after a friendly chat. He's as grey as they come.
  • alejokatana  - Fangirls
    This only bothered girls I think, they´re okay having wet dreams with child murderers but not with rapists, still, she deserves to be raped by the entire dothraki army.
  • MutheSquirrel
    I dunno, my friends Amy and Jade don't care one notch about him raping Cerci. They still like him, because they hate her and her dead son.
  • alejokatana  - mmm
    He´s really handsome I must say
  • Strejdaking
    Yes, but we were not suposed to like him at that time. Now, the show tries to potray him sympatheticly and that thing kinda hurts it.
  • mc_pch
    I get that Cerci is a lot of fun to watch, being an alcoholic shrew. But seriously, she is one of the most despicable characters ever created. Who cares if she gets raped? Who cares if she dies? I don't mean to sound callous, but considering the subject matter of the show, why is her getting raped by her established lover a this big of a deal? Remember the butcher's boy? Cerci had him executed! She murders children! Can we talk about that? Jamie could put his penis in her ear and skull fuck her, and I wouldn't mind. Todd, Lindsay, I love you both, but just let it go.
  • alejokatana  - It´s complex
    It´s related to empathy, if a women were to decided who´s guilty between a pretty woman and an ugly man, most times the man will be found guilty. She probably has a crush on Jamie Lannister like most women, and Todd being with her has to agree on everything, despise the fact he did read the books and has a better insight.
  • kev86  - Regarding Cersei and Jaime
    It was rape. Cersei goes along with the kissing, and then she stops it. Jaime then gets angry, and starts forcing her to have sex. She says no, not here, then she clearly says not here, it's wrong.

    Jaime then says : "I don't care". Whether she didn't want to have sex with him, or just didn't want to have sex in that location, it is rape. Forcing someone to have sex is rape. If the writers fail to see this, then Game of Thrones truly is what I always thought it was. A show for immature teenagers that should be called "Violence and Boobies" written by morons.

    It depresses me that it beats Mad Men in the ratings. Now that's a great show. Mad Men even had a similar scene where a man wants to have sex with his wife in an office, but she doesn't want to, because it's not her office. He ignores her, and forces her to have a sex. In the show that scene is clearly depicted as rape, the writers saw it as rape, and the fans all agreed it was rape.

    Mad Men is a show written by adults for adults, and that's probably why the fans can tell the difference between consensual sex and rape.
  • alejokatana  - You should read the books
    Then why she didn´t bite, scratch, hit him in the balls or call out for help?
  • dhusk
    Didn't Jamie casually try to murder a 12-year-old in the very first episode? And do a bunch of other despicable things through the course of the first two and a half season?

    Why was it okay to cheer for him doing good things after all that, but not okay to cheer for him doing good things after Cersei's rape?

    When people change, they don't change all at once, or go in a smooth arc from bad to good or vice versa. Realistically, its a very messy process and there are a lot of stops and starts and regressions along the way. Just ask anyone who's been through it, like a recovering addict or reformed criminal.

    Jamie's rape of Cersei is to show I think that he still has a far way to go for any kind of real redemption, and he is going to have to struggle much harder for it than the viewers obviously thought. Its a realistic choppy, chaotic path to possible redemption rather than one made strictly for dramatic convenience, like a lot of shows and movies do.

    Besides, I think Cersei is going to totally turn on him completely soon enough, and this just gives her a very clear motivation to do so.
  • alejokatana  - People is crazy
    A lot of women are okay having a relationship or fantasies with child murderers, but when rape if put on the table, now that´s a bad thing, not homicide, toruture, canibalism or chil murdering.
  • Behellmorph
    I will miss Lady Olenna, she was one of the most enjoyable characters to watch.

    It is also satisfying to see Sansa no longer being in Kings Landing. I swear Petyr was actually enjoying talking about schemes with Sansa judging by how he smiled. Kinder twisted though as he had a part in Eddard getting his head chopped off.

    As for the Mutineers, despite how twisted they were. I can't help it but like those escenes because I love Burn Gorman, who plays the leader Karl, he is one of my fave actors and watching him let lose in his speech was fun.

    It was great to see the White Walker scene. That was unexpected but fantastic.

    Brienne, Podrick, Margery and Grey Worm are all just as great as they have always been.
    I still have to remind myself how the scene with Cersei went down in the books and how the producers meant for the tv show though.
  • parfai
    Ok the rape apologist on this board are fucking disgusting human beings and no one should feel safe you people EVER!

    Someone(male/female) says no and sex still happens =rape. end of story.

    The real dispute w/ that scene should be why was it made into an unnecessary rape scene? I read the excerpt that GRRM wrote in the book.
    If that scene was filmed, we could be discussing the moral crazy that jaime x cerci and the implosion of their relationship and how srsly fucked
    in the head they are....but nope! The series runners have a rape fetish they must get out and in turn ruined some great development for 2 of their main leads.
    And people saying cerci deserves rape from her brother-lover is just sickening proof of the A-OK rape culture we live in. gross.
  • alejokatana  - Really?
    If I asked you, does Hitler deserves to be raped? You will answer yes, so please don´t be a hypocrite.
  • Strejdaking
    Why do you think he/she would answer yes? Are you really that arrogant to think everyone is exactly as much of a fucked up dipshit like you?

    And even if, how is ANYTHING what Cersei did on the same level as what Hitler did?
  • alejokatana  - Really
    First, your very language proves me you´re, as you would say, a " fucking piece of shit", so you already lost any point you were trying to make.
    There´s a lot of comedies on which Hitler is raped, even with a pineapple, that subject laughed, so did you, so both of you are in favor.
    Well, incest and child murder does cover the quote, and please, don´t try to defend that character using numbers, because if you think someone responsible for the death of hundred of thousands is holier than someone responsible for millions of deaths, that will only further prove the fact that you´re a sick person.
  • runic knight  - @ alejokatana
    The entire argument concerning why no one deserves to be raped can be countered with the argument that no one deserves to be tortured either, and yet people will wish that on the villains as well without being called monsters for it.

    I could have sworn I covered this in another post but I suppose it never posted right here. Anyways though, the idea of "they are evil, therefore I want evil to befall them" is a natural, predictable reaction to the characters in the story. We cheer the heroes, we boo the villians and the more emotionally invested we are in them, the more we want good for the ones we like and bad for the ones we hate.

    the problem arises though when a personal morality is being used to judge someone for having that emotional response to a situation designed from the start top cause it. Lets be honest here, the writer wants you to hate some of these characters. He wants you to wish death and harm and pain on them. But for some people they feel that certain evils are too bad to wish on others, a stance that I can respect as a personal philosophy, but one that often is projected onto others as a means to judge them too. It isn't enough that they see that rape is too indefensibly evil to wish on another, it is that anyone who doesn't agree with that statement are inherently evil themselves. And that is where the issues arise.

    In this story, especially in the way it is presented on screen, he committed a rape. The wasn't too unfitting for his character and the relationship he had with the other. The show may not have intended it to be that way and presentation failure might be more to blame then we realize, but that is what it showed here. Someone wishing harm to befall Cercei, or wishing Joffrey was tortures or any other such emotional reaction to their characters do so out of a need for a cathartic retribution to those characters. People getting judgmental about that solely because of personal feelings about rape as a concept or, giving the benefit of the doubt that they aren't hypocrites and feel that torture and other such pointless evils are inexcusable, because someone's emotional response to a fictional story didn't abide by their personal philosophy one inexcusable evils need to take a step back though.
  • mistermilwaukee
    I do really hope King Butters becomes a thing. The White Walker scene has me wondering though, is George letting the show writers in on stuff he's planning and has yet to reveal so as to keep it for the most part canon or are they pulling a stunt like what anime that get ahead of their manga do....just make up stuff for convenience and pray.
  • alejokatana  - Too bad
    He´s going to be murdered soon anyway,
  • midvinternatten
    Let me solve the "why don't they talk about the rape" thing for ya: Clearly, Cercei and Jamie like to get freaky with it. To them, "no" doesn't mean anything. Had she said the stop word "apple martini", he would have stopped immediately. Yep. Clearly.

    There, I fixed it! :D
  • Homer42
    The horses obviously are inbred!
  • lightsabermario
    Everybody is making this a far bigger deal than it should be. Why are you getting so upset by rape but perfectly okay with the fact that THEY ARE BROTHER AND SISTER! It's incest, plain and simple, and even in their world, it's wrong! What, so if they had reciprocated sex between brother and sister, you'd be all right with it? Jaime may be in the middle of a heel-face turn, but his sense of morality has always been warped around justifying him being with Cersei, regardless of man's laws or the gods'. Now his growing good morality and his justifying-incest bad morality are crashing together, and he's finally back together alone with his love after so long, and he's experiencing disgust at her hateful personality that he never noticed or cared about until now, and he's dealing with his complex emotions for her the only way he ever has, through sex, in the form of rapey hatesex. Sure, it's a backslide, but it's a backslide that makes perfect sense. He is not, as a result of season 3, suddenly a paragon of virtue that is incapable of immorality, he is a complex ball of emotions ready to explode. Quit trying to force characters into roles that fit your perception of them when your perception of them is incomplete.

    And yes, I read the passage in the book. She objected in that scene as well, and only after Jaime ignored her rejection and kept going did she change to being completely compliant and into it. "There was no tenderness in the kiss he returned to her, only hunger. Her mouth opened for his tongue. "No," she said weakly when his lips moved down her neck, "not here." ...She pounded on his chest with feeble fists, murmuring about the risk, the danger, about their father, about the septons, about the wrath of gods. He never heard her." Does that sound consensual to you? The only one who changed between the scenes was Cersei, who for some reason in the book changed her mind mid-rape and became fully into it. That honestly makes less sense given her state of mind, how distraught she is over her son's death, being right there in the room with his body, essentially in front of Jeoffrey, while they do it. It would be far too much for her to handle.

    And you're doing the same forcing-characters-into- roles thing with this leader of the traitors, honestly. Yes he is acting like a typical villain, but you're just taking it for what it matches in TVTropes as opposed to analyzing WHY he is the way he is. Think about it, what are the Night's Watch comprised of? Thieves, murderers, rapists, and worse. He already mentioned that he was a contract killer and likely also serial killer in his former life, and prided himself in the fact that no one could stop him or tell him what to do. Then he got caught, got shipped up to the Wall and now was being forced to abide by all their rigid rules by some righteous Commander? He would not stand for that, and now he is indulging in all the pleasures...
  • Strejdaking
    Incest is atleast between two theoreticly consenting people. Rape is not.
  • lightsabermario
    he was being denied in the Night's Watch, literally in the face of that Commander. He is truly evil, but in a way that makes perfect sense. The way he sees it, no one can tell him what he can or cannot do.
  • Khyron42
    Ahh, feminism. Throw a child out a window? Easily forgiven! Force someone to have sex? RUINED FOREVER!!!!

    It's ALMOST as if Jaime is a complex character, capable of doing both good things and bad...

    Nah, it's all a secret misogynist plot against you. Go with that!
  • CaptainCanada
    Missing the point that the single-biggest problem is the show's failing to realize that it was a rape.
  • Badgercheese94  - Regarding Jaime
    I dunno what the whole big deal about the Jaime and Cersei scene is. If him pushing Bran out a window in season 1 didn't bother you, that shouldn't either. Besides, who's to say nothing like that's happened before between them? >.> Cersei and Jaime are into weird ass shit to start with.
  • Strejdaking
    Except that was BEFORE show started pushing Jaime as a sort of an anti-hero. Also, that was recognised as attempted murder (and you could argue that was out of sense of self-preservation), while the show acts like this wasn't a rape.
  • alejokatana  - Not really
    It was shown he did some good things, but anti hero, never, Batman is an anti hero, and he doesn´t murder children.
  • Lightice
    I don't quite know what the complaint about the Night's Watch's mutineers being "too evil" is about. If you have any clue what kind of shit soldiers have done and are doing to this day in regions of extended conflict, what Karl and his cronies are doing is *tame*.

    And although this show is about shades of grey, it's also about what lows people can fall when pushed. They were lowlifes to begin with, forced into the shittiest situation possible, and then all semblance or order broke down and they pretty much know they are dead men walking, enemies of all civilised and uncivilised humans everywhere. That sort of realisation does nasty things to people who weren't that nice to begin with.
  • wordforger
    You know... Am I the only one who thought Missandei and Grey Worm are actually brother and sister but were separated when they were sold? The fact that he can't remember before his training and the fact she's trying to get him to remember is probably a major hint. I know in the books she had a brother who was unsullied...

    As for the Jamie/Cersei rape scene, this is how I see it:

    Book: Kinda rapey, but eventually reciprocated (so far as Jamie can tell).

    Show: Much more rapey with reciprocation debateable (Did she kiss him back and give nonverbal cues or not?).

    Now what really differs beyond anything is the timing and circumstances. In the book it's desperate "I haven't seen you in ages, my love" sort of sex, before they realize how different and out of sync they've become. Yes, it was disturbing in the book too, but at a point it does sound like the only reason Cersei protested was because they were in a sacred place, next to their dead son, and she didn't want to dirty the place up.

    Here, the speed up of the Jamie/Brienne arc in comparison to the royal wedding means that the twins have had plenty of time to be out of sync before this scene. Cersei has kept him from touching her before this. That makes his actions that more despicable since it's become clearer they are drifting apart.
  • Humdiblifier
    Glad I'm not the only one who thinks Grey worm and Missandei are brother and sister. I thought grey worm might have known too when he called Dario stupid for his comment about liking her. They even look a bit alike.

    I really don't understand either why anyone would feel sorry for Jaime at all. He might have been taught some humility here and there but he's never been anything but a despicable brat. I laughed out loud when they cut his hand off. He more than deserved it. The only way he might even come close (maybe) to redeeming himself in my eyes is by helping his brother.

    Cersei is just as bad as her brother and son were. Can you really feel sympathy for the devil?
  • alejokatana  - Lol
    Not all black people are related
  • Humdiblifier  - wow...
    Just... wow!

    It's been a while since I read something this blatantly stupid. Quit trolling and pull your head from your ass.
  • alejokatana  - Really
    You´re the racist here,
  • Lightice
    Grey Worm and Missandei could not be brother and sister in the books, at least. While Missandei had two brothers who became Unsullied, she was a young child and her brothers would have been taken to training at the age of five. Grey Worm is far too old compared to her for that relation to work.
  • Dr, Jakob T. Ripper
    I am just bending over laughing at how much of a big deal N-Chick and the commenters are getting over the Jaime/Cersei rape thing. Am I the only one who remembers his final scene in the first episode, WHERE HE PUSHED A BOY OUT OF A WINDOW TO KILL HIM!?
    He's NOT a good guy, he was never a good guy, and as long as hes a sister fucking sociopath YOU are the dumb ones for expecting more.
  • CaptainCanada
    Whether or not Jaime is meant to be a "good guy", the point of the complaint is that the show doesn't actually realize that what he committed was rape. Also, the character in the novels is staunchly anti-rape.
  • alejokatana  - Please
    They´re against rape only if the victim is highborn, because if you´re not, your virginity belongs to your lord before your husband.
  • Strejdaking
    The character in the show was too. Until that point.
  • alejokatana  - Somw women are crazy
    It´s easier for them to have wet dreams with child murderers than with rapists.
  • Ebalance
    I knew it was either her or Magery/Majery... I can't spell... right when it happened.

    My problem with this episode actually was the "oh... teaching you to read..." scene... they could have done something much more exciting with that time... we already have seen so many "I'm teaching you to read... " stuff with Stanis's daughter and Smuggler Guy... I'm sick of "I'm teaching you to read..." scenes...

    I can't get behind the "Two Wrongs Make a Right" attitude of Dany... damn she's a vengeful bitch...
  • alejokatana  - Does it really surprise you
    She´s Targaryan, she intended from the start to murder anyone who doesn´t want her as Queen, as a matter of fact, she wants to murder all Baratheon, Lannister and Starks, women and children alike, Plus, she already slaughtered 20% of its population, including children, what difference does it make a couple hundred more.
  • Lightice
    20% of what population? Not Meereen, that I can assure. Most of the "Great Masters" are still alive and well. Dany can be bloodthirsty, but she's not without restraints. As far as she is concerned, the people killed in the uprising plus the 163 she had crucified were enough to make her point. The rest get to live in peace as long as they swear her fealty.

    Also, she's always been averse to killing children. She specified all children to be spared in Astapor, and there's no reason to assume she'd do any different in Meereen.
  • alejokatana  - KILL THE MASTERS
    KILL THE MASTERS, that includes children, and yes, she´s bloodthirsty, she´s a Targaryan.
    She´s clearly willing to kill Rickon herslef if she has the opportunity.
    Yes, because is really merciful leave babies without their parents and let them starve to death.
    As many people tried to make Jamie the good guy, you´re trying to make Danny the good woman, "they can live on my new world or burn on the old one", so, either become my slave or my dragons will murder you.
  • Stiggie  - Shocker
    What a suprise, more complaining about last weeks obviously not rape, and not a single bad word for the grown women sexually seducing and manipulating a young boy.

    You know, I didn't used to like Jaime but he's grown on me ever since he managed to piss off all the feminist idiots.
  • alejokatana  - you just said it
    For all feminist, is rape if a grown man seduces a young girl, but if an older woman seduces a child, is ok.
  • Strejdaking
    Suprise, that totally was rape. They also didn't talk about Littlefinger hitting on Sansa, despite being under age too. Almost like this has nothign to do with gender but with the fact that seducing is less abhorent than actually forcing youself on someone.
  • alejokatana  - please
    That would be childish, it´s another time, even Ned married an under age girl, you´re great great great grand father probably also seduced and under age girl, you´re great great great grandmother.
    Yeah, but on middle age everybody were sick, that´s why catholic priests would love to live on that age again.
  • jane
    There are several reasons people are still upset about last week's episode: the creators and the director of the episode apparently didn't realize they were filming a rape scene, which is what made most people angry, Jaime has been in obsessed with Cersei for a long time, everything he does is for her, so it doesn't make sense for him to do something that would harm her (no yet anyway, maybe in the future if their relationship keeps deteriorating) and last season he lost a hand because he saved Brienne from being raped.

    And of course other people hated it because "it was different in the books". 98% of the hate the show gets is because it's not exactly like the books, which IMO is absurd. Like this week's episode, it was good, it had some interesting reveals and character moments, and yet a lot of people dislike it because most things are not from the books.
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