Game of Thrones S4E3

(69 votes, average 4.55 out of 5)
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Comments (55)
  • Swarmcrow
    avatar
    i have just seen the scene once and though i didn't knew how to take the scene most of my family though she wanted to have sex with jaime.. just not right there


    anyway , cersei lannister is a bitch and a horrible human being .. so I cant say i feel sorry for her , she kind of have it coming
  • Uhghthatsawesome
    No one has rape coming to them, EVER. No matter how horrible you think they are. Just because she's a character doesn't mean you should say that she had it coming. That's disgusting and you need to evaluate your thought process.
  • Genebyoung  - you right
    yes you right
  • TreuloseTomate
    Fortunately, this is fiction and not real life. Do you get offended by people cheering over Joffrey's death, wanting him to suffer even more? Because he had it coming. That little shit deserved to die, so does this hateful bitch.
  • Strejdaking
    No she didn't. NOBODY deserves to be raped you disgusting piece of shit.
  • Raj Sivad
    avatar
    I don't really think that's what he said... He said she didn't want to have sex right there, next to the body of her dead son. Since he considers the scene to not be rape, he can't be saying that she "has rape coming". Perhaps he's either saying that she had the death of her son coming (which she really did) or she has her own death coming (which she may, though I haven't read the books).

    Anyway, don't jump to conclusions and call people disgusting before you fully understand the situation.
  • Lightice
    Stannis can't got to the Wall because he doesn't have enough men or ships and can't recruit in large enough numbers. Davos finally figured out what he and Stannis should have from the start, that the Iron Bank is getting mighty pissed at the Lannisters and their ironically unpaid debts, and might want to sponsor someone to give them a bit of an incentive.

    They're going to hire the Golden Company, the most famous, loyal sellswords that money can buy with the Iron Bank's aid. The Bravoosi incidentally don't do slave trade and don't exactly take it well; they've been at trade war against the Slaver's Coast for generations in hopes of stifling the whole thing up eventually. Being descendants of escaped slaves does that to you. It hasn't happened yet in the books, but they'd make natural allies for Dany's cause if they think she has what it takes to succeed.

    As for what happened with Jamie and Cersei, I feel that it was an important reminder for all those who forgot that Jamie is a very messed up man in a very bad place, and he's categorically not a nice guy in spite of having occasional nice moment here and there.
  • MutheSquirrel
    Dario's shallow way of acting makes MORE sense in the book due to his gaudy, extravagant look. Blue beard, covered in lace, he's a man who cares for nothing but what he sees as beauty. It makes less sense with his new look...
  • Chiyo18
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    it's bad enough that jamie and cersei are brother and sister and have 3 kids together, but jamie deciding to rape her in the funeral hall, where their eldest lies dead, is a whole new level of wrong.

    there are other ways they could have reminded the viewers that he's not a good person.

    also, lindsey, love your cutethulhu shirt :)
  • Lightice
    "there are other ways they could have reminded the viewers that he's not a good person."

    Yeah, because this show is so well known of pulling its punches and sparing its characters and viewers. Honestly, this isn't any worse than the time Jamie bludgeoned his cousin who adored him and would have done anything for him to death because he couldn't stand to sit in that cage for another minute. Why was that scene in any way less shocking than this one?
  • lobsterzoidberg
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    Should we expect Jamie to lose more body parts now?
  • EdBunny
    I didn't take it as rape. To me she lost her child and didn't want to have sex IN that Situation.
  • CaptainCanada
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    Not wanting to have sex "in that situation" makes it rape. She clearly said she didn't want to have sex, and Jaime said he didn't care, and forced her to.
  • EdBunny
    Let me clarify. Cause I realized I didn't communicate it right. She wasn't saying No to the Sex. She was saying No to the Place.

    I watched the scene, she was also engaging him. She did try to take his shirt off.
  • PoolBoyG
    That's rape you evil moron. When someone doesn't want to have sex, and saying no, and you force them, that's rape.

    This is what's really terrible about this scene - people are making excuses rape. This is rape culture.
  • EdBunny
    No. There is a difference between "No not here" and "No to sex" she didn't make herself very clear. And tbh, she was unbottoning his shirt. She was just a part of it too.
  • BrentJohn  - Ummm, evil?
    avatar
    Yes, she did say no, but she WAS eventually engaging, so no, it's not rape.

    And most importantly, even if it WAS rape, what's your point? Are you saying it shouldn't be allowed to be shown? If that's the case, just because something just so happens to cross your comfort zone, doesn't mean it shouldn't be allowed. It's not sending a clear message like "rape is okay to do in real life," so if that's what some people are getting from it, then they clearly aren't mature enough to what this show.
  • Shinigami
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    So Jamie and Cerci basically did it next to Joffrey's corpse.
  • witchfire
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    i miss stark raving
  • SamClemensRIGL
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    So I guess that would make it a Big Lipped Alligator... Rape Scene?
  • Behellmorph
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    Yeah the Jammie scene really didn't turn out the way the producers wanted. I get the thought process and how things were meant to go down with Cersei but...yeah they sure did botch that.

    I was cheering when Sansa finally managed to get away from the capital after all these years. Shame that Dontos was missing in season 3 but yeah their is only so much screen time and budget the show can afford.
  • Omicron Warrior
    Really? You cheered? I mean, yeah, on paper this is a good development, but "out of the frying pan and into the fire" is a very apt description of her situation. Petyr "Littlefinger" Baelish is one of the most consistently evil characters who has proven again and again that he will do anything to advance his station without regards to the suffering he will inflict on others.

    And he now has Sansa in his power with no one the wiser.
  • TrangleC  - really?
    She didn't fight back, she didn't scream, she even kissed him.

    Yeah, she said "no", but that was about it. By Japanese porn standards, she pretty much raped him by only saying "no" 3 or 4 times and by not making "nnnnnnnnnnngh!" racing car sounds.

    After all what happened in this show, the most evil female character saying "no" while having a sex scene that would look totally normal and consensual if you would watch it muted, is what shocks you guys and makes you that uncomfortable?

    That is not just silly, that is warped.
  • Mischi
    Seriously, I also wonder how THIS of all things is the nogo for all people. Have you seen the rest of the show? Babies get murdered out of their mothers arms. Children get impaled and probably raped, too (as is implied here and there). The rape scene in crasters keep was far more concerning, imo. These two lovebirds , with their incest-loving nature used to bang here and there, all the time. Now, that Cersei might be a little uncomfortable doing it in front of their dead son might be understandable (though it doesn't derive too much from things they are usually into). She dosn't scream in agony, like, for example, that poor girl Boltonbastard was hunting and who later got torn and eaten by the hounds. Nobody is implying a 'hooray for rape', here. But having this issue about this scene (of all the other scenes) to me is a little hippocratic.
  • Badgercheese94
    avatar
    Tywin was like the nicest and least grumpiest in this episode than in others, maybe it was cuz his pain in the ass grandson was gone :P

    On an interesting note, the actor that plays the man that took The Hound and Arya in, is my friend's friend's dad.
  • KaizerJED
    avatar
    The rape scene in the Scept of Baelor was so bad and out of character for Jaime. I know the scene in the book they were trying to recreate but I don't think it was received the way the show runners expected.
  • PoolBoyG
    He's a middle aged guy that has sex with his sister, and tried to murder a kid.

    Jamie can have character development, but he's still an a$$hole.
  • altocat
    avatar
    It's a damn shame they pulled this crap with Jamie. He was slowly becoming one of my favorite characters. Hopefully, they'll never speak of this event again for the good of our sanity.
  • DestroyTheWorld
    Was anyone else wondering just HOW Tywin was going to have The Talk with Tomman? I mean, THAT sounded Hilarious just from the line "Well it's actually rather straight forward."
  • Egoy  - They goofed
    Spoilers....

    Yeah there is nothing to be done, they took a non-rape scene from the book and made it a really uncomfortable to watch rape scene. I hope we can all just pretend it didn't happen because Jamie's character is significantly altered by that scene.
  • Redwyrm
    I was totally expecting Joffrey's body to hit the floor during that scene. Kind of like the way in movies two people starting to get it on will push the stapler and jar of pencils off a table to make room.

    Or just bumped and roll over the edge.
  • scalfin
    Let's be honest: the comments here prove that the scene was necessary. " I hope we can all just pretend it didn't happen because Jamie's character is significantly altered by that scene." "He was slowly becoming one of my favorite characters. Hopefully, they'll never speak of this event again for the good of our sanity."
    As for show standards, we've had torture and murder in spades, and I don't see why rape should be on any sort of pedestal, especially when the refusal was arguably within the range of how consenting women act in real life (yes, social scientists have actually put out surveys asking women if they've said "no" when meaning "yes" and gotten back a majority answering in the affirmative), at least from what I saw when distracted by real life intruding, and that it couldn't have happened to a nicer gal.
  • CaptainCanada
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    Rape, unlike torture and murder, is generally not the subject of endemic, enduring misconceptions about what its constituent features are.
  • 3DMaster
    avatar
    Oh, come on; there were guards right outside the door. One genuine scream from Circe and they'd charge in, and then stabbity stab Jamie to death.

    It was pretty clear to me, her barely audible "no" and "stop" were merely her trying to continue her punishment of Jamie for not supermanning his way out of chains and flying to her at super speed, and not using his super breath and heat vision to suck the poison out of Joffrey and cauterizing any wounds and saving his shitty ass and not being willing to murder Tyrian on her say so, while everything else about her was eagerly fucking and kissing him back.
  • Javo  - no it was rape in the books.
    Todd read the chapter again! it was totally a rape. Cersi said no repeatedly she struggled she beat on his chest to stop him and he persisted. Jaime wouldn't stop so Cersi stopped fighting and gave in!



    She kissed him. A light kiss, the merest brush of her lips on his, but he could feel her tremble as he slid his arms around her. "I am not whole without you."

    There was no tenderness in the kiss he returned to her, only hunger. Her mouth opened for his tongue. "No," she said weakly when his lips moved down her neck, "not here. The septons…"

    "The Others can take the septons." He kissed her again, kissed her silent, kissed her until she moaned. Then he knocked the candles aside and lifted her up onto the Mother's altar, pushing up her skirts and the silken shift beneath. She pounded on his chest with feeble fists, murmuring about the risk, the danger, about their father, about the septons, about the wrath of gods. He never heard her. He undid his breeches and climbed up and pushed her bare white legs apart. One hand slid up her thigh and underneath her smallclothes. When he tore them away, he saw that her moon's blood was on her, but it made no difference.

    "Hurry," she was whispering now, "quickly, quickly, now, do it now, do me now. Jaime Jaime Jaime." Her hands helped guide him. "Yes," Cersei said as he thrust, "my brother, sweet brother, yes, like that, yes, I have you, you're home now, you're home now, you're home." She kissed his ear and stroked his short bristly hair. Jaime lost himself in her flesh. He could feel Cersei's heart beating in time with his own, and the wetness of blood and seed where they were joined.

    that's the passage in question word for word in it's entirty.

    look at what happesn she kisses him with affection and Jaime flips into the rape mode.

    he goes after it, SHE SAYS NO!

    after she says no, He uses force!

    SHE PHYSICALLY STRUGGLES AND PLEADS FOR HIM TO THINK BETTER OF IT. she invokes every excuse possible to get him to stop, not period blood, nor fear of god nor tywin himself could deter Jaime.

    So she surrenders and tells him to hurry. and then finally she orgasms with him.

    So I guess it's not rape if she cums?

    maybe it's just those blurred lines robin thicke was talking about huh todd. Jaime knows she wants it just trying to to demoesticate her. he knows she wants it, right todd?

    bull crap don't put this on the show runners! George wrote a rape so they filmed a rape. you got a problem it's with GRRM.

    this was not the show runners adding it because it was hot. it how it was written in the books.

    hell they made it less gruesome by leaving out the period blood and him wiping down the the bloody alter with his sleeve before coldly leaving
  • ahak
    avatar
    Why are Americans so afraid of anything sex related? A guy being flayed and tortured? A bit uncomfortable but fine. A woman being non-violently raped? OMG, let's pretend it never happened. Despite what a lot of femnazis say, there are different levels of "rape". Him "raping" Cersei is not worse than child murder. People act he just killed someone by raping their eye socket.
  • Shinigami
    avatar
    That makes you seem like fucked up person. So rape and child murder are ok in your eyes and there is nothing wrong in those? I quess sick fucked up things like those is easy to say when hiding behind nickname.
  • ahak
    avatar
    Are you stupid? Why do I even ask, you probably are. Where did I even say there's nothing wrong? There's nothing wrong with showing rape in the show when there's already a ton of other horrific crimes shown. Americans act like rape is worse than Hitler.
  • Omicron Warrior
    To misquote a Texan, "I've seen many men who needed to shot, but I've never seen a woman who needed to be raped."
  • AbsoluteVirtue  - Nikolaj Coster-Waldau and GRRM on the controversy
    avatar
    George R.R Martin has given his own thoughts on this subject, in the wake of a lot of reaction to how the TV show portrayed the scene compared to the book. On his blog, Martin writes the following.

    "I think the "butterfly effect" that I have spoken of so often was at work here. In the novels, Jaime is not present at Joffrey's death, and indeed, Cersei has been fearful that he is dead himself, that she has lost both the son and the father/ lover/ brother. And then suddenly Jaime is there before her. Maimed and changed, but Jaime nonetheless. Though the time and place is wildly inappropriate and Cersei is fearful of discovery, she is as hungry for him as he is for her.

    The whole dynamic is different in the show, where Jaime has been back for weeks at the least, maybe longer, and he and Cersei have been in each other's company on numerous occasions, often quarreling. The setting is the same, but neither character is in the same place as in the books, which may be why Dan & David played the sept out differently. But that's just my surmise; we never discussed this scene, to the best of my recollection.

    Also, I was writing the scene from Jaime's POV, so the reader is inside his head, hearing his thoughts. On the TV show, the camera is necessarily external. You don't know what anyone is thinking or feeling, just what they are saying and doing.

    If the show had retained some of Cersei's dialogue from the books, it might have left a somewhat different impression -- but that dialogue was very much shaped by the circumstances of the books, delivered by a woman who is seeing her lover again for the first time after a long while apart during which she feared he was dead. I am not sure it would have worked with the new timeline.

    That's really all I can say on this issue. The scene was always intended to be disturbing... but I do regret if it has disturbed people for the wrong reasons." (April 21, 2014)

    Here's what Coster-Waldau had to tell us about That Scene:
    "That's certainly George R.R. Martin at his best, at his finest hour. [chuckles] I think it's, well, we talked a lot about it, of course, 'Is it rape?' Their whole relationship has been over all those years has been a physical one and it's been about catching those moments and their love affair over those years has been condensed to those moments of passion. Everything else has been being in the same rooms and pretending. It's a weird one. And now … you'll have to watch the show.They have history, a long history. Nothing is simple. When he says, 'Why the hell did the gods make me love a hateful woman?,' I think that is at the core. A lot of dysfunctional relationships or you've seen them where you go, 'Why the hell did they stay together for so long?' 'Well, we love each other.' 'But it's f***ed up! It's just f****d up.' Everything here is extreme. That scene is extreme. The emotions, everything is j...
  • Eyeshot
    avatar
    In "Storm of Swords," I was surprised at how Jaime was given a narrative POV. Usually it's the characters we're supposed to feel sympathy for who are given POVs, and I didn't want to feel anything about Jaime other than hatred and revulsion. But dammit, I began to see Jaime see the error of his ways, and I wondered if he might actually stand with the likes of Tyrion and Daeny.

    I'm guessing good ol' R.R. changed his mind about making Jaimie sympathetic after seeing how viewers began to start liking him. I only wish he and the other writers had found some other way to make Jaime a douche again, as rape is always a disgusting plot device.
  • jane
    avatar
    The director of the episode says Jaime didn't rape Cersei, that although she was telling him to "stop" and "it is wrong", she was kissing him and wanted to have sex with him. It's obvious it was meant to be consensual but they screwed it up, I honestly can't see that scene as a non-rape scene, no matter what the director says.

    It would been so easy to make Cersei express her consent, all they had to do was make her "yes", instead they show her crying and saying "it's wrong" while her brother grunts and says "I don't care". I can't believe the director didn't realize the impression that scene gave. It was extremly uncomfortable to watch and honestly, I couldn't enjoy the rest of the episode because of it.
  • Hatter2539
    I think the rape was to further the divide between jamie and cersi (not sure on spelling have not read books) and that will in turn end with tirion and jamie teaming up(what with tirion giving bron to jamie to teach him left handed sword fighting). I liked tywin's talk with future king person (sorry it takes a few scenes before I remember a persons name) about what it takes to be a good king, it shows that although tywin may be a bad man he is not cartoonishly evil. The rape scene, I don't get all the attention it's getting. It was definitely rape and if the intention was to have it ambiguous they failed however I too could see jamie's thought process and didn't think it was out of character for him so they succeeded there. To everyone saying the rape ruined the episode for them, did theon's torture and mutilation also sour that episode, did the numerous episodes of slaughter also ruin them for you? what of craster's "wives"? If not don't you think that's a little weird? I like the new dario at the very least he no longer sticks out like a sore thumb like the previous actor did.
  • icedrake402
    Ahak: I think the reason rape is regarded as a special kind of evil is first that it's a perversion of something that should be enjoyable and / or loving, and also that unlike violence and killing, it's something that can never be done for sympathetic or justifiable reasons. Compare the audience reactions to Robb's family being murdered against Arya getting her revenge in the first episode of this season to see that difference. And yeah....I can't read that scene as being consensual or even ambiguous, and any attempt to portray Jaime sympathetically after this will feel very uncomfortable to watch.

    I'm not enjoying this season as much so far, and I think it's because it seems to be making the setting and characters so unpleasant that I just feel less investment in it--which works as a recreation of a time in our history that was pretty brutal, cruel and violent, but as a work of drama where I need to feel an investment in at least some characters and hope that things go well for them, less so. Of course, bad stuff happening to people who don't deserve it was always a feature of the show, but it just seems to be being done in a cruder and more obvious way now. "Hi there, I'm a random peasant introduced just this minute, I have a loving son and wife, sure would be a pity if something tragic blargh I'm dead and an overacting extra from Mad Max is gonna eat me because cannibalism is super evil!"
  • Strejdaking
    There is also the problem that you can justify murder, because it can under some circumstances be necessary for a greater good. I can't think of any scenario where rape can do that.
  • SamClemensRIGL
    avatar
    I wonder if they could have added two little words to clarify the situation if they really believe they weren't shooting a rape scene: "Not here."
    That's all. They just needed to have Cersei express that she didn't want to hankypank next to the still cooling corpse of their eldest right there.
  • Bansheebot
    avatar
    Can't say I like what they did in this episode. I mean, I haven't read the books, but I know most of what happens in them, so I knew a scene like this was coming. But come on, it was so blatantly rape. I suppose it was in the book as well, seeing as Cersei didn't want it at first and then succumbed, but the problem to me comes from something else - this was the one crime Jaime was built up as utterly hating. He was repulsed by it and by saving Brienne for no other reason than not wanting to witness such a thing being done again, he shows that this is his one shred of decency as a character, what was left of his morality. That and protecting the people he loves and are closest to him, like Cersei and Tyrion.

    And what happens now? He becomes a hypocrite and, even worse, he's starting to hurt the people he loves. His character was slowly evolving into someone more humane and honorable, and now with one act they reverse everything. They make him hurt the one woman he supposedly loves and even kills for, by doing to her the one thing he supposedly would never do.

    If he's going to become a better person - fine. If he's going to become more villainous - fine again. But having him swing so much back and forth between those opposites just makes it seem like he secretly has a split personality.
  • lightsabermario
    avatar
    Yes, it was definitely sorta rape, and it was definitely sorta rape in the books. In both, she specifically said no, despite complying sexually. She could have screamed out to the guards to stop him at any point but she didn't, but she clearly didn't want to have sex then and there. No means no, and this might drive a wedge between them, but let's be honest, this is Cersei, she's not gonna have any PTSD from this. It was designed to be disturbing from its beginning in the books, let's not ignore that.

    ANYWAY, let's talk about everybody's favorite classy genius, Tywin Lannister. God, every scene with Tywin is magic, he just emits charisma and fills the screen with it. I love how he tutors Tommen, and it really gives you a hopeful vibe for this new leadership. Under Tywin, Tommen could really become a good king (I say as hundreds of book readers are probably chuckling under their breath). Tywin knows what's important and what's not to ruling. His objections to each of those philosophies of rule were perfectly reasonable, if a bit harsh. But that's Tywin for you, and Charles Dance turns in a magnificent performance.

    On a side note, have any of you noticed the incredible similarity between Game of Thrones and I, Claudius?
  • BB Shockwave
    avatar
    I think George R. Martin just goes to writing with a thought in mind each day - "What new and so far unused depravity can I shock my readers with today?" Seriously, this fantasy world of his is now reaching ridiculously unbelievable levels of monstrous and immoral behaviour. At this point even Caligula, Nero or Pol Pot would turn away and vomit at what some of the characters do.

    Oh, and we are meant to buy that Jaime turned over a new leaf after his capture, and became a changed man. Yyyyeaaah...
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