Now that is a fair rebuttal!

One Piece to me seems to be a hyperactive anime, that looses focus a bit the later on in the series it goes.

the dub by Funimation is gret and doent have the same problems 4kids did

damn just got beat by coldguy :pinch:

anyway i thought the same thing when watching marzgurl's video

excellent rebuttal, thank you so much for such a well explain argument and also for giving so many examples of anime/manga I could start reading/watching right now :D

I was hoping for a mention of Gurren Lagann, since that show never failed to make the viewer feel PUMPED and happy (well... excluding a certain episode or two). Great rebuttal, though I think both sides are right to an extent.

We originally were going to have Gurren Lagann's opening play, but the video turned out shorter than we anticipated, so we couldn't use it.

Well, good to know I'm not totally crazy at least. That show literally changed my life. lol

Pumped? Happy? How about Manly! The burning spirit of Kamina shall lead us into the heavens, with the unbreakable power of his mighty Drill!!!

WHO THE FUCK DO YOU THINK I AM?!?!?!?!?!

The God damned Bat Man?

I'M THE JUGGERNAUT BITCH!

Wasn't Jing also kind of emo?
The whole layout of the anime is rather gothic or something.
Anyway, I felt Naruto getting depressing in a ridiculous way right from the start with the whole naruto wanting to be awesome yet no one loved him and Sasuke being the "I don't like anything in particular, I hate many things" guy. Did the series really get even more emo after that?
I really miss stuff like Getbackers.

One more thing, when saying Kenshin's ending was happy, didn't he die at the end?

We used Jing more for the opening than the show, but I would like to point out that a show can be gothic, and not be "emo". The thing is, and maybe we weren't clear on this point, shows CAN be dark and serious. Manga/Anime are a medium and [i]should[/i] have large amounts of variety. Upbeat/Depressing. Action/Romance. Silly/Serious. Manga and Anime should have them all.

As for Naruto being depressing... well I disagree/agree. Sure Naruto's life is sad, but isn't it heartwarming to see him bond with Iruka, earn the trust of his friends, and become respected amongst his peers? I mean Naruto may start off bad, but the story really climbs upwards for a while, at least in terms of the character of Naruto.

For the Kenshin question, yes and no.

The original manga series, ended it's 28 volume run with a happy ending. Samurai X is what I believe your referring to which is a continuation. It's still separate from the manga and anime series however.

Also, historically, the man that the series was based on was executed in his twenties.

ummm I want to counter your argument but the thing is your argument is too solid, too safe.

The thing is mangas have always have a timely blend of emo moments and optimistic moments much like yin and yang it completes the experience of reading the manga. Marzgurl pointed out that Naruto and Bleach have become emo. However I don't think they will carry on for long as Toriko, hitman reborn and Fairy Tail have or will at some point have a darker layout for sometime. Naruto and Bleach are in a depressive state due to the fact that both Kishimoto and Kubo are building up to some epic confrontation, after that I think it will come back to normal.

Furthermore there are PLENTY of other mangas that are going completely emo such as Zetman, Kamen Rider Spirits and Black Lagoon but they are all seinen mangas.

I'm not attacking your points but I just want to get this off my chest that Bleach and Naruto aren't as popular because of how depressive it is and that I think other mangakas have noticed this.

The only thing bad about One Piece is that it suffers from WAAAAY to long an opening. I always sit around waiting going "Get a move on, already!"

Oh yeah, and the filler. Some of it is ridicolous in the bad way.

I completely agree. One Piece's openings are long, and they used to always be followed by the Gold Roger monologue, and then a recap. Got to a point where five minutes of the show was just old footage. That seems to have changed, but I can see why it happened. For a while One Piece would make an entire episode off of one chapter in the manga which would leave them struggling for filler to stretch out the episode.

I think I just learned a little something about myself here, since when you started listing lighthearted manga, you said almost all the ones I'm reading (One Piece, Negima, Kenichi, and the not-named-but-still- lighthearted-and-awesome Soul Eater).

Great video. Really cracked up at the Narutaru comment (which may say something else about me...).

I do kinda hope that after the current Bleach arc (or at some point) they back off on the freakin' tones-of-angst because Bleach used to be my favorite anime, with its dark, horror-esque monsters and tones mixed in with many different characters whom were ostensibly offbeat and funny.

Maybe just de-power them somehow and just have a volume dedicated to them doin' what they used to.

Great rebuttal, by the way.

I'd kind of like to note that a LARGE reason for One Piece not being all that popular in the states is because the treatment it got in translation was a DISASTER. It would, in my opinion, likely be far more popular if more of an effort was made. Funimation picked up SOME of the pieces, but they could have done better then they did.

Eh, possibly, but I will admit One Piece is something you need to warm up to. Considering the series that went before (DBZ, Ruroken, YYH) I still think American audiences would have been turned off from the cartoonish atmosphere. Could be wrong, but I've always felt One Piece was never going to come anywhere close to matching its popularity in Japan as it would have in the States.

The same can be said for Detective Conan... Detective Conan is huge in Japan, so much so that they even use Conan for anti-crime things not anime related in the least and even makes appearances at events. However, Funimation, in all of their infinate wisdom decided it was wise to cut out more blood than the Japanese did, even considering the excessive gruesomeness of the first death we see in the series, and changed each character's name horrible [except Conan Edogawa and Phantom Thief Kid, but you have to admit, its hard to screw those up]. On top of doing that they put it on Adult Swim at a horrible time with mostly action series, not realizing it is not an adult anime/manga, but a family anime/manga, and not fitting to be put on Adult Swim.

dont forget Space Battleship Yamato

Quite an excellent rebuttal, especially on the One Piece part. Simply hearing the clarification on what she meant by it was a joke alone made it worth it.

Hopefully she'll word things better and actually do research before making claims in the future.

A good reaction to Marzgurl`s review.
But honesty, Yugioh GX... yeah, to be honest, I was a huge fan of season 1 and 2. I liked the anime because it took the later too overdramatic storyline of yugioh and made it more "funny" and added characters to it I really prefered more. Especially Jaden who wanted just to play his game. But you must admit, the third season was really kinda depressing. I don`t know why and to be honest, I think if they would have worked out the plot more -perhaps over two seasons at the whole- they would have made a deccent "ending". Instead we got this season and season 4. Or as some clal it "season 3 and a half", because this was just a long big lipped aligator moment.
Honestly, I liked GX, even if the storyline was kinda weak -I think some FFs are able to put more "action" and character development into it as the producers- but the third season... it was in some ways awkward.

Another example for how a storyline can become more depressing is "Tsubasa Reservpir Chronicle". In the beginning, it was a nice crossover between AU variants of different Clamp manga worlds. Yes, there were also sad parts we could foresee, such as the death of Kurogane`s parents or Fay`s foreshadowed past. But still, it was more or less funny. But after the Tokyo storyline... let`s just say while I don`t hate the manga, I think it became -especially in the end- a mind fuck similiar to the last episodes of NGE, as well as Grant Morrisons Final Crisis, to clal out a "famous" comic event.

Still, I admit you are right. A lot of series manage to be "emo" at some point in a mangastoryline, because it is also "necessary" for character development or emotional attachment. Still I think the "problem" with Naruto and Bleach at the moment isn`t that they are "emo" -for me, emo means depressed, nothing else- but that the storylines doesn`t develop that good.

For example: the last fights in Bleach against Aizen`s best men (and woman) were just lame in my opinion. A few chapters, at the end always someone shows he has a bigger cock then the other--- I mean, better attack, and soon they are finished of. It`s... it`s kinda weak. Kubo just tried to make the storyline longer, by adding some unnecessary fights to the storyline between the subordinates of the Arrancars against some vice-commandos of the Shinigami. And while I liked the characterdesign, I really did think the fights were pointless to the storyline itself and I couldn`t really build a connection to those characters. And no, Ichigo being the only one to defeat Aizen... yeah, to be hnest I think he is just to weak. I mean, if Aizen really is that powerful and Ichigo could only defeat his "fourth best man" by transforming into a Hollow, this isn`t a good sign. Kuo can`t expect I could understand this.

Naruto: Dear lord, Naruto. I don`t have anything again...

Well, I don't go much for shonen anyways.

And when are they doing the next Transformers anime?

There's going to be a new Transformers cartoon in 2010, but I do not know who is doing the animation for it.

If you have to make so many concessions for a rebuttal, then you have to wonder if it's worth making an entire video about.

Btw, I have to tackle the repeated inference that using the word emo is a bad thing (the same as that campaign to get kids to stop using the word gay as a negative connotation). It's just a manner of expression, it's not really hurting anyone, and the bottom line of it is accountability for kids who refuse to take responsibility for anything in their life.

Emo is used as a word to describe a generation of kids who have (or act like they have) a lot of emotional problems but aren't willing to deal with them in any manner. This is a generation of spoiled kids, they steal everything (music, anime, movies etc.) that they want and expect everyone to do everything for them. Unlike Generation X, they have no principles, they don't fight for anything of substance and they like their media shallow and mind-numbing. That's the emo generation, it doesn't included everyone but you know it when you see it.

Some may see that as an unfair generalization and to that I say, prove it's usage wrong by not letting the stereotype hold you back... just like all oppressed groups had to do. Fight for your integrity if you honestly think that's in danger.

[quote="AlucardsQuest"] Emo is used as a word to describe a generation of kids who have (or act like they have) a lot of emotional problems but aren't willing to deal with them in any manner. This is a generation of spoiled kids, they steal everything (music, anime, movies etc.) that they want and expect everyone to do everything for them. Unlike Generation X, they have no principles, they don't fight for anything of substance and they like their media shallow and mind-numbing. That's the emo generation, it doesn't included everyone but you know it when you see it.[/quote]

Agreed 100%. Not to sound like a crusty old man, but I fear for the future when I think of the emo contingent.

As for Marzgurl, not too much of a fan. Never really was, but she knows her stuff when it comes to anime and manga, which is respectable. I watched this video just because of its title, and because I really dig YROT and Rollo T. However, I didn't watch the Marz video that they're rebutting, so maybe I should at least check that out. *shrugs*

I understand the problem people have with emos... but seriously, I understand the emo kids too. I think you are sort of right about them not fighting for anything and not doing anything for themselves, but I think it's a symptom of the age, that's just the way they deal with it. Sure, it's easy to say that today's youth have it easy... but I'm really not sure if they do. They were born to a very chaotic world where it's hard to hold onto anything, where there's too much information shoved at them everywhere and where apathy is a religion. Really, having to struggle and work for your upkeep a bit is healthy and that's something that's been taken away from them... and it's not their fault that they've gotten everything for free. And they ARE kids and kids are a bit silly no matter what.

All the rambling aside, I just do think that it's not the kids alone that are to be blamed, I know it's a cliché but society is at fault too. The fact that some kids still do well even in today's society, doesn't change that. It just means that they're stronger. That doesn't mean we should just scoff at the ones who are more sensitive and can't deal with it all.

I don't really have a concern with what anybody else has to say about what Marzgurl said. Everybody's going to say something, and I'll leave it at that.

And I have to say: I LOVE ONE PIECE!! It's the first anime that's actually pulled me back into Anime. I watch Bleach, but I understand it's getting "Emo", but that's just a part of the characters getting better definition and fleshed out. At least it's not "Leaf Village's knuckleheaded Ninja" Shippuden...

I still think both parties has valid points here. I think it was obvious that MarzGurl exaggerated things she said in her video. Its clear that the more "emo" an anime is, the more likely it is that it will be popular right now, and its obvious thats not the only type of series out there. One Piece is my favorite anime in the genre, and its like you say a good mix of action, drama and comedy. (fun fact, yearly, One Piece almost sells more issues in japan then all comic books combined in the US). But regardless of reason, it feels like the anime industry is struggling to find new ideas right now as most of the new series seem like the same old stuff over and over again.

Now the real cancer that is killing anime is all the moe crap that snuck its way into most shows out there, making it standard issue to try to make you want to bang 12year olds and then feel sad for them afterwards...

And another issue is all newer anime fans that watch whatever new anime is just out and think its the most awesome thing they have ever seen, without having anything to compare it to. Sometimes these fans hype something so far I get annoyed with the show far more then I should. This is the reason I dont like Code Geass for example.

Obvious troll is obvious.

Excellent rebuttal, and one without becoming a personal attack, the interwebs needs more of this.

One Piece has pretty much become my favorite manga and anime series, I remember trying it on a friend's recommendation several years ago and being hesitant at first due to the infamy of the 4kids dub. Suffice to say, it sucked me in.

I always like that how even in the most dramatic and emotional moments (the Arlong arc, Alabasta, Water 7/Enies Lobby, and what's going on right now in the manga) it still has its upbeat moments of exaggerated comedy.

I think that's what's lacking in Bleach (and I assume Naruto, I never got into the series). There's just no reprieve. Comedy comes in very short bursts, maybe one panel of a silly expression and that's it. The current arc in Bleach has been going on for YEARS, and I'm just waiting for it to end. It's been nothing but fighting, with one interesting flashback tossed in the middle.

Any video that praises One Piece gets a thumbs up from me.

You know everyone I know and indeed people I don't know (i.e. internet personalities it seems) praise One Piece, but I've never been able to get into it so personally I'm glad that at least you guys provided a longer list of things to check out.

I'm still pissed that American Shounen Jump doesn't have Majin Tantei Nougami Neuro. & that Funimation dubbed Hunter x Hunter ::cries::

The shounen demographic sure failed on Neuro & Saiyuki. Not only are was 90+% of the people on the Neuro scanlations livejournal girls, but Saiyuki changed it's demographic in series 2 (& the anime counterpart ruined it by making it more girly).I guess the boys were a bit put-off by the non-stop barage of homosexual inuendo.

Well, the sheer amount of female-produced G-rated Gag & X-rated yaoi doujinshis is proof enough to me that these demographic guys in Japan don't know their audiences very well. Shoujo is a turn-off to a lot of women, it promotes masogynistic & unrealistic "ideal" views of sweet innocent dainty maidens who need a hero. & they need to stop that shit in hentai too. Make sure there's a few dominatrexes & keep the joyrides concentual.

You know, I don't think I've ever heard anyone really make a case for "Shounen" being a demographic rather than a genre. Since I'm always That Guy who bristles when people refer to Anime or Manga as a genre rather than a medium, this is a little surprising. Thanks for bringing it up.

One thing about the Shounen demographic thing that I'm sure someone else already mentioned: what about all the fangirl bait that's slipped into the genre? I hate to mention Prince of Tennis in Y's presence, but there's clearly a LOT going on there that's not intended for the 10-18 Male bracket (well, not the straight ones, anyway)

I totaly agree with Y Ruler of Time and Rollo T. There is still happy shounen around and there has always been dark and gloomy shounen and its not just thing of this era of the 2nd millenium.

[quote]Naruto: Dear lord, Naruto. I don`t have anything against drama, but right now,
the manga is for more than one and a half year just that. I really liked the
fight Shikamaru vs. Hidan, as well as Sasuke vs. Deidara at last but then...
Madara`s reveal, his master plan, Sasuke going down the route to darkness as
fast as Anakin "I am a disgrace to Darth Vader" Skywalker and the fact,
that a lot of characters are now just there and don`t really do something for
the plot are just a few reasons why I think the manga is going downhills. And
yeah, perhaps Kishimoto is going to something "great" in the end. But
honestly, after killing of his organisation -except for a schizophrenic lant
monster and his revenge driven descendant- and already revealing his greta
master plan -honestly, now we know what is going to happen. The suspicion is
gone- I don`t think the manga will become good again. Wit One Piece we don`t
know where the manga is going, but with this... it`s sad that Naruto became
this.[/quote]

Don't forget Pain nuking Konoha and killing several characters only to bring them back to life at the end. That was where I drew the line with Naruto and not once have I looked back.

At least One Piece, despite deviating from the many story a little much at times still knows how to keep the readers entertained. Especially with the recent events going on in the Manga.

Yeah, Pain nuking Konoha... to be honest, I remembered it but I didn`t want to end aup in a rant about this event because honestly, Pain was a "pain in the ass" for me thanks to this storyline While I thought him against Jiraiya was still good but sad, the entire Pain vs Naruto story arc was just a mix of Star Wars Rip Off, Final Fantasy villainy and a deus ex machina with a "Dragon Ball no Jutzu". It was the weakest storyline in the manga for me, even weaker than the later showing up Kage meeting story arc and after I found out that the american Shounen Jump at the moment finished this storyline and a lot of people praised it, I laughed my ass of. Because I am german and in germany, the most Naruto fans after reading the fanscans of this did turn the manga down. Dear lord, the outburst after Hinata got stabbed alone could be heard in Japan.

MarzGurl was right about Haruhi not being Shounen, it's actually Seinen which is basically the next step up. Shows like Bokurano, Elfen Lied and Magical Girl Lyrical Nonoha are seinen.

http://tvtropes.org/ pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ Seinen

Anyway, good video (and yay to mentioning Negima and Narutaru!)

MY only coplaint about this rebuttal...why use Junle P, why not we are or Believe or Brand new World. Those songs are just as awesome.

y te way, I agree in that one piece is most definatly lessemo than Naruto. But I cant help but to disagree with marzgurl in that One piece's characters dont hve emo backstories as compared to NAruto. On the contary I think their backstories are MORE emo than NAruto's. The thing is, the Strawhats...GOT OVER IT! Not only did they get over it but its made them stronger and badass (For examples of how emo their backstories can get see Nami, Chopper, and Robin. And remember, unlike NAruto these guys didn't have a whole group of people to fall back on...They were alone)

I picked Jungle P because it had just the best opening in the first three seconds. That drum beat alone was proof that anime and manga is not depressing. If I just went with my favorite, I would have gone with Rainbow Star, but that one takes a while to get going.

One thing to note about Naruto is that he gets better as the series progresses. Pretty much from Chapter 1 his life starts to improve, and he doesn't remain the lonely loser he once was.

Yeah, I think the only time I saw "emo" shounen stuff are those involving the "tween" demographic.

But to be fair, my mine gripe in anime nowadays are the archetypes of the idiotic main hero and the moe-tastic main heroine. Very rare do they tend to strive to make something different from those archetypes.

when will people finally stop treating shounen etc. as a genre ... its a target audience for christ's sake
it has no "elements" or whatever ... so searching for them in an anime or a manga is pointless
and haruhi is a special case for the original light novel was targeted at an older audience and the manga was published in a shounen mag ... so it really can be either concidered neither seinen nor shounen or as being both

[quote=KKDW]MarzGurl was right about Haruhi not being Shounen, it's actually Seinen which is basically the next step up. Shows like Bokurano, Elfen Lied and Magical Girl Lyrical Nonoha are seinen.

http://tvtropes.org/ pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ Seinen
[/quote]

Uh. I'm not familiar with Bokurano, but how exactly is NANOHA of all things Seinen? Shows like Monster or 20th Century Boys or, yes, Elfen Lied are seinen, but Nanoha? While it has its portion of action, it's more a shoujo/shounen action hybrid.

I love that manga :D