Funimation's a business. They're not looking to turn US social norms on their head and advocating free speech, they're looking to turn a PROFIT. And they'd rather deal with some angry consumers not buying their product than angry consumers calling them out for selling anime with a scantily-clad 9-year-old girl in it. One of those things would be bad for publicity and have a more damaging effect on them. Funimation is one of the better Anime importers out there, so cut them some damn slack. How can people even think about talking smack about Funi when they know too well what 4Kids has been doing to anime?

Although I agree with the business aspect of your comment, comparing something with something worse just to make it look better does not make it good.

[url]http:// judiciary.senate.gov/ special/S151CONF.pdf[/ url] this is the current US law regarding the matter, the 2003 Protect Act. Section 502 deals with drawings of actual children in a sexual manner (ie: the drawing depicts an actual, existing child engaging in sexual activity). This is the charge that gets you listed as a sex offender. Section 504 deals with purely fictitious characters engaged in sexual activity. This one gets you an obscenity charge and no sex offender listing.

The argument behind these laws is that a person prone to pedophilia would be encouraged by this kind of artwork. In other words, the fear that someone who is otherwise under control of their urges would be spurred into committing an actual sex offense against a minor after viewing this kind of restricted artwork.

According to section 504, works of accepted artistic value (meaning not made just for the reason of making someone sexually aroused) is excluded.

Honestly, I think the gross misconception by the lawmakers is that a person who is a pedophile, but otherwise in control of their urges, can be aroused to illegal action based just on viewing of these restricted images. Granted, section 502 is all fine and well because it prevents the exploitation of actual, real children; but section 504 needs to be rescinded because it has no place in the modern world. People can control their own thoughts and emotions. Those that can't, can't; with or without these kinds of stimuli.

Remember, this is a country of the people, by the people, and for the people. These laws are supposed to keep the peoples' best interests in mind. Write to your legislators and let them know that this law needs to keep up with the evolution of society. If nothing else, let them know that the opposite can also be assumed, a pedophile may find enough release with material like this so as to PREVENT them from committing an actual sex offense.

[color=green]*sigh* As if the world needed any MORE lolis in anime.

I can't really add any additional opinion on this debate (beyond the sides you already covered) without sounding preachy on views of censorship. This doesn't even seem like a show that I'd enjoy, but if home video releases are in danger of censorship, that kind of scares me about the future liberties that any medium will have. Common sense should prevail in exposing yourself to material like this, and if the main goal is just entertainment, a censor shouldn't even be requested.

Thank you very much for covering the news portion of anime Marzgurl. It's always nice to have a bit of information to balance the entertainment.[/color]

As a corporation, Funimation has to look out for its interests, so they will make edits to avoid a firestorm that could hurt their business. That being said, they were foolish in not researching the anime beforehand so they could avoid this mess.

On the subject of sexual portrayals of underage children in Japanese animation... yeah, it's creepy, it disturbs me on many levels, but at least it's not pornography of actual children. And if someone wants to own that stuff because it gives them jollies, then it's their choice. Don't punish them unless they hurt someone.

This whole affair is just another example of how censorship screws things up and restricts our freedom of expression. Thanks for bringing it to light, Kaylyn.

How can this even be seen as a restriction of expression. If it's one, thanks got it there ! Man, how low can humanity get to start considering pedophila as something charming.

Sexualizing a 9 yr old is [b][u]Filth[/u][/b] plain and simple. We shouldnt care what context the "story" puts it in. Its clearly glorifying it here playing music and making it seems "graceful" as these ribbons are streaming everywhere.

How was the above comment down-voted 6 times?

People will argue where the line should be drawn? I think its silly they edit small things like blood.

But the line definitely needs to be drawn at preventing the encouragement of things like "Kiss Kiss Transformers" and This naked 9yr old.

Its not that the US isnt "accustomed" to the Japanese obsession of Loli and creepy stalkers, its that we dont approve.

The thing is, Joe, that they aren't sexualizing a nine year-old, either in story or in real life. It is a fictional character (one who happens to be far older than 9), nothing more and nothing less. Child pornography is abhorrent because it exploits real children and has real effects on real people's lives. Characters in anime and manga are not real and, thus, cannot be exploited. It's not like depictions of this nature are going to make people run out and become paedophiles, that's not how it works.

I agree with you that the sexualization of children is disgusting. Period. But this isn't a child, it's a drawing. It is impossible to confuse this with anything other than an illustration put to motion. If you start putting strictures on what you can and cannot portray in fiction (note, once again, that fictional characters cannot be exploited or harmed in any real way), then that opens up the way to the slippery slope. You may think it's silly to edit blood, but I guarantee you that there are a significant number of people out there who are every bit as offended as you are about the vampire-chick. You ban depictions in illustration, next thing you know you're banning depictions in literature (at which point Anne Rice is fucked), and so on and so on.

Yeah, there are probably some people who get their jollies from stuff like this, but there are also people who get their jollies from pictures of completely clothed children doing nothing sexual in the least. That doesn't mean you stop taking pictures of your kid at the park. I can see both sides of the issue, but the fact that it is a fictional character makes it clear to me that the censorship is bullshit. That being said, Funimation is well within their rights to edit it, they're trying to turn a profit and this will make the series (or is it a film? I haven't really heard about it before today) more marketable to mainstream America (read: Twilight fans who get off on anything vampire related). Either way, I won't be buying it...mostly because I wasn't going to in the first place.

I'm sorry, but that's hardly the case. Saying this promotes the victimization of children is like saying that pornography promotes rape. It's just not so. Are you also going to say we need to criminalize violent video games because they encourage people to be murderers? There is about as much truth in one as the other.

Its not "Filth" filth is like general porn and stuff.
Sexualising a 9 year old is really really...bad!

And fictional characters could be considered real in their own world.
When i see this im not just seeing illustrations put in motion just like im not just seeing light being reflected on various objects in RL.
So that is a very lame excuse.

But then again she is not a nine year old girl but an age old vampire in the guise of a girl and she knows exactly what shes doing(I havent really seen the anime but anyway).
And no one is getting hurt.
If done in an arty way I guess its okay if they keep off the fanservice(ugh).

I recommend checking out Neil Gaiman's blog entry on the dangers of censorship:

http:// journal.neilgaiman.com/ 2008/12/why-defend- freedom-of-icky- speech.html

Never have I seen a more well-posed argument against censorship of even the most horrific sexual fetishes.

Freedom of speech is absolute. There can't be exceptions, because once you give an inch, you give a mile.

-Tom

I really enjoyed reading that, and not only because Gaiman is just about my favorite author. :D He did a splendid job of communicating what a lot of us were already thinking in a level-headed and convincing fashion, and I sincerely hope that people read his words and take them to heart.

Yes loli is creepy, but it isn't about that. It's about censorship, if Funi has a ethical or legal problem with the show, don't license it, editing it seems to be a mite hypocritical. "Oh that show is good enough to sell, but not good enough to respect the authors artistic vision." But this entire thing is a mistake, it makes Funimation out to be creeps or censoring jerks.

That's all politically correct and good to say but it gets real messy when people go to prison for drawn pictures.
That's a whole other level of messed up and the censorship it entails may seem "ethically correct to you but it can spread and grow like a cyst, deforming the good intent behind it into a hideous monster.

Just look at what germans do with violent games for example.
Prime example of what happens if you let censorship grow rampant.

Besides, imagine drawing a nude underage for anatomy study and then facing legal action for it.
That's what it could be twisted into and something like that should never happen.

And even if you're a sick fuck and have fantasies like that and "live them out" by just drawing them, facing consequences because of it comes pretty close to "thought crimes" imo.

yeah, see thats your opinion, everyone has their own ideas of what is and isnt acceptable and everyone is offended or disgusted by different things.
you play games, alot of which are (very) violent, now i know plenty of people who find that offensive and dangerous.
i myself find people being sick on screen, (paper/in a book,ect) more offensive than ANY amount of lolicon or even guro but i dont insist on that one joke in family guy being censored and i dont want it to.

the fact is that the censorship is more likely to set a precident for further censoring (potentially of other things like violence or alcohol references) than the uncensored version is of causing a sex-crime.

the point is that its dangerous to cause changes in the real world because of someting in fiction

Ahem... while I don't approve of depiction of underage teens as sexy, and over HERE its creepy, what I think you should all know is that in some places of Japan, the legal age seems to be 13, while others, like Tokyo, its 18. So, keep in mind that even though America looks to have 16 to 18, there are other countries that have lower legal ages, so thusly its not considered as "creepy" in certain areas. Blame the country's customs, not the people who've been raised to follow them, eh?

With that said, it's okay for Funimation to be looking out for their own PR, BUT....

If they want to censor everything and make everybody angry, couldn't they...ya know....not take and spend money on the animes that require the extensive mutilating? 4kids already does that enough.


EDIT: And another thing. Wouldn't you guys rather that some Japanese men are looking at legal-aged 14-year-olds rather than some of the less-humane countries where a 14-year-old can be bought as a sex toy for a goat and a blanket? I, personally, find that much more morally outraging and much more creepy than fantasy animation.

I must agree with you in the regional differences. What is seen as acceptable in other countries may not be viewed too highly in the US or the like. However, I just find it completely silly when I look at it, that I can get arrested for something I draw. Some people have interests that aren't exactly 'normal' IE pedophilia, but I say as long as they aren't acting on those interests, by all means let them look at under aged cartoons. Sure, we can have movies of people being dismembered, killed, raped, but we can't have drawings of under aged girls? It just seems like something of a double standard to me. Oh well, it just makes you wonder why Funimation is even going through all this in the first place, or even their original intent for porting that particular anime.

You know what Funimation should do is have a regular edited version of Dance In The Vampire Bund, and have a special Adults Only cut of the anime. You know one of those anime you can only get if you ARE a certain age that are only available at specific stores along with the other A0 Anime (which are mostly Hentai related). I mean really if they have permission to edit the content, that means they'd also have the regular uncensored content to and if they got that out in SOME form then people wouldn't have a reason to complain. Even if it was for mature auidences only Funi would be able to point out the reasons why it's only for mature auidences and that will kids or teens from watching the material (or at least make sure Funi isn't responsible for them seeing the show).

I think that's a fair compromise (especially since Funi did use to sell a lot of editted and uneditted VHS and DVDs of Dragonball/Z and Yu Yu Hakusho in order to appease to the younger and older fans of the series) since really, if you bring over a series to dub nowadays and sell it on DVD, yoru suppose to be getting the uneditted copy. There's plenty of movies that have that case so why not this series? Good ediotral though since yeah we don't want this to open the floodgates for other kind of editted series.

Though I understand why Funimation did this it makes them look like hypocrites. Now I myself do not watch this anime nor do I plan on doing so when it's released here (I find the anime concept creepy and I know I'm not alone in that) I understand why the fans are upset.

A prime example of cultural differences. I don't aprove of Funimation's official release censoring, but obviously they are watching there own asses.
I guess this is the other side of the coin where in anime you have overdeveloped teenagers that can be mistaken for something older, and then you go into true "lolicon" territory.
It depends on how much editing they do, and how aparent it is.

As for the story itself, did the main heroine NEED to be a prepubescent girl? That is more of a question for the source material.
The story elements have an interesting premise, what would happen if a secret society emerged off the coast of a first world nation and declared themselves a soveriegn power in the modern world. Just as well the vampires could have been replaced by any number of concepts.

In the end, most US audiences that aren't accustomed to the concept of the Japanese obsession with loli will not give a positive outlook to this series.

I'm sure it was to get the loli crowd, not actually for story reasons.

What about the original producers of the anime? What will happen to them if everyone boycotts this title? Will punishing Funimation also punish them?

As a consumer this doesn't surprise me. You see these types of things all the time. However since it's an Funimation the largest dubbing company it still doesn't surprise me.

Think about some of the anime's we used to watch in th 90's which were heavily cut. It wasn't hypocracy it was mandatory. Now it's like taking off a wheel to a unicycle. You aren't defending your rights if you boycott something you are just making it seem like you prefer to see underage nudity. It's hard to distingush rights of consumers and just being perverted.

As an anime watcher this shit don't bother me either. It's Funimation thinking "Vampire's are cool! We had Trinity Blood but now we need something different." The problem in my opinion was the company doing this "Oh no not underage nudity. Did you see that case? What if our consumer's were charged it would hurt our image and supporters. Plus we'd be looked at as perverts."

This is the company making a decision, not the anime fans. If you boycott this you will look like sick individuals and thats something I fear will happen. I hope that you just suck it up and enjoy your non-loli anime.

I am heavily anti-censorship, even to the point to where one should be allowed to have full on, pornographic style scenes in daytime television. An extreme example, yes, but it should get my position across.

That said, the same goes true with anime titles such as this. It's animation, therefore it's art. No actual children were hurt, exploited, etc. in the making of this title. Would I personally watch it? No, because I find images of that sort kinda creepy. However, if someone else finds it cool, then why should he/she be kept from it? It's not like they're indulging in the super creepy alternative.

As for Funimation, I can understand their reasoning behind censoring this series. I don't like it, but I understand it. I don't blame them for essentially covering their assets (no, that's not a typo).

I hope I made myself clear. ^^;

I think Funimation bought the license without thinking it through and then because of pressure from the US government as well as the majority opinion of the citizens, they felt that in order to profit from the license they would have to edit it. I don't blame them, I blame the people and the government of the US for thinking that watching ANYTHING can warp your mind and turn you into a violent child molester. I personally think that there should be no censorship of anything at all in the US. If laws are broken in the creation of the media then the government can go after the creators. If media is created legally then it should not be a problem to show it to a mature audience who have made the decision to watch it. :angry:

I didn't know the moderators of Spoony's forum worked at Funimation. Zing!

Well said, and I agree.

Editing sucks! but so does being charged with possession of child pornography. The line between what is acceptable and what isn't is very blurry in the U.S. especially since we don't really have legislation which defines what is or isn't legal. I've done a video about Moe and lolicon. It can be seen at this address: [url]http://blip.tv/file/ 3203075[/url]

I've also talked about editing in several videos. They all can be seen at this address: [url]http:// animefordummies.blip.tv[/ url]

I'll make this short. I feel that American licencors should do their best to give us the most unedited content they can. However, when it comes to an issue as grey and blurry as lolicon, you should give them some slack. You might say this is a cop out, that they are covering their asses, and you might be right, but it's a decision they made after careful thought and consideration, and they felt it to be the best decision in this specific case.

However, if you have real issues with this, you can always demand an unedited version. Like I said before, if you're voice is loud enough, you will be heard.

P.S. Watch Anime for Dummies' new episode: [url]http:// animefordummies.blip.tv[/ url]

Watch it on Xtreme Network Online:
[url]http:// xtremenetworkonline.com[/ url]

Nice job on the topic. ^ ^
I always thought that “Moe” meant “Cute” and that's it.

….Sigh.

We wish.

Not really. Moe means "pretty" or "girly". Kawaii means "cute".

What I don't understand is that this is what ratings are for. I can understand it, completely, being edited for television or possibly even the internet since I believe Funimation dose allow viewing of some of their titles on their website. But I say release the uncut version on DVD like you normally do and just change the rating from maybe a PG-13 or R to an NC-17, M or NR.
Obviously fans of the series know what they are getting into and understand the story/ characters. In the end it's just an animation, not real life.

[url]http:// www.animenewsnetwork.com/ news/2010-03-10/ funimation-comments- further-on-vampire-bund- edits
[/url]


They just made an update on the edits, so it looks like there's going to be an uncensored version after all....maybe.


The only thing I can think of in this situation is that I can see where Funi is coming from with what happened in the Handley case. More than likely, they were still working on getting it brought over while the trial was still going on, nearing the final finishing touches when the s(*%t hit the fan of the sentencing of Handley. Hearing what went wrong, Funi decided to take a little recourse and cover themselves in case some random "soccer mom" or "politician" catches wind of the anime release and soon tries to go after them.

All in all, I do believe that as you said, if you're not interested in the title at all or would rather wait until they come out with a 100% Uncut/Uncensored version, then simply hold off until then, it's after all, "your" choice.

I don't buy DVDs and don't care about loli-vampires or loli-material in general so I don't care much for this controversy.

But I agree that about the editing issue, I don't need some official deciding what I should or shouldn't watch, and lets not forget about the [b]Virtual[/b] children think of the Virtual children they have rights too :whistle:

I dunno how I really feel about this. From what I gather, this seems to be a needed censorship on funi's part. Our government is at a stage where we are quite anal about what we allow people to see. As long as it is made clear by the fans that only what has to be legally censored should be censored.
Blame the government not funimation. Or our society that the government reflects to some degree.

My love afair with Anime started with Akira.

Pop quyiz; what do Ghost in the Shell, Ninja Scroll, Akira, Doomed Megalopolis, Devil City etc have that X-Men, Spider-man, BatmanSuperman, The Centurions, Transformers and He-man don't have?

Answer; it's not the art style.

Boycotts might work during the 18 hundredths, but not the new millennium!
I'll explain why boycotts doesn't work well in the new century, verse of boycotting is not purchasing item, and you need it you make it(for example we boycotted the British back in the 18th century, we had to make our own clothes, bed, furniture,Gun and other materials) this doesn't work quite so well in the modern age, first of it really bothers you on the edited material, then don't pick it up, otherwise I don't see a good reason for boycotting the entire company, I agree with Mars girl, because logically you're not helping the problem are causing more problems. It's like slapping a kid and not telling them what they did wrong, just constantly doing it repeatedly. So in essence write a letter, and I think going to a congressman is a lot more important, funimation is doing this for our protection, as well as their own. Odds are they probably weren't planning to alter the footage. But who knows maybe after all this mess has been slipped underneath the rug and forgotten, they'll probably release a unrated edition, but still have the edited edition on the streaming(which personally I don't blame) after all their animated site not porn site, if they were they would be constantly asking about your age and also asking for your credit card company, and your checkbook, and you're address, security number, and charging about $40 every week. So don't get mad at the company, when they're trying to make certain that they stick to what they are, sellers of a cartoon stuff not trying to get arrested.

I hate this tract. there is a big difference between amine an child porn. basically this is just the slippery slope fallacy. for that matter there isn't a correlation between any "child porn" animated or real and pedophilia. I don't support real because that is actual harm befalling real people but cartoons don't have that.

Besides, "Some Audiences" would be the people NOT paying 40 bucks for something, since they just cut out all the best parts, could be just as enjoyabole if they got the much cheaper Marvel or DC animated movies that also have lots of action, manga-inspired artwork and no sex.

... ah, pedophelia. that's... um... that sort of changes things slightly, but not by much.

I must disagree with you that boycotting Funimatrion won't work. The most important thing to a company is Money, and boycots get them right where it hurts.

The main thing about this is that it starts a precident which may lead to other Anime DVDs, which I FUCKING PAID FOR, may also be censored. And, in the cense tha5t it may set a precident, the Pedophelia changes nothing.

While im not planning in watching that anime i would say that i agree in the censorship!

Because, lets face it! When an otaku watch an anime about a 9 year old doing anything, they are not thinking about art, they are thinking about a ´´hot loli``...

As if we didnt know that theres a lot of made just for pedophiles like Kodomo no Jikan!

And dont give that ´´is a cartoon is not real`` crap! We know that that character represents an 9 year old and is not really that diferent from a real 9 year old girl if the person is thinking about how ´´hot the 9 year old is!``

you say that the important thing is not wether the characters are real or not its what the viewer thinks?
so punching a pikachu doll is animal abuse and pulling the head off a barbie doll is torture?

you cant sanction people for thoughtcrimes if the havent done anything

I think an important point is being missed. Phedolfilia (bad spelling) is not a physical problem.
The problem is that it scars and wrecks innocent human beings at an age, where they aren't mentally ready to have sexual relationships.
The fact that this character, mentally, is much older than 9 years old is a vital element.
Of course, this kind of logic only works, if you don't consider factors like people or real life.
In the end I would have made the same call as Funimation did. The rights of free speech is nothing but bullshit, if not used with decency and respect.

just reading and, they don't have the reason you state.
"District Judge Gritzner of the Southern District of Iowa found that subsections 1466(a)(2) and (b)(2) of 18 U.S.C. 1466A unconstitutional. Those sections make it a crime to knowingly produce, distribute, receive, or possess with intent to distribute, "a visual depiction of any kind, including a drawing, cartoon, sculpture, or painting," that "is, or appears to be" a minor engaged in sexual conduct. Judge Gritzner found that those sections restrict protected speech and are constitutionally infirm."

Now that i think about it... does anyone care what a person who is complaining about not seing a naked 9 year old thinks?


Because they clearly said that the censorship would not affect the plop at all. So the people are crying just because they cant watch somo pseudo child porn ?

[quote=Hichcoot]Now that i think about it... does anyone care what a person who is complaining about not seing a naked 9 year old thinks?


Because they clearly said that the censorship would not affect the plop at all. So the people are crying just because they cant watch somo pseudo child porn ?[/quote]
but the thing is it's not child porn. your whole argument hinges on that false equivocation.

False equivocation? That means that im right then!


And come on! It is about childporn! Even if they are drawings they are supose to be children!
And we are talking about an anime, not a painting or a sculpture, everybody knows that Japan try to push the child porn to the limits!
Ever heard about a OVA called Boku no Pico? Is about two kids under 12 years old that have sex! ( and god how i wish i didnt know that!! is disgusting!! ) and they even sell and actual ASS sex toy based off that anime!! They sell a fucking ass that is made to look like a 10 year old ass!!!! Are you fucking listening??? dont tell me that that is not child porn! Even if is a cartoon and a piece of plastic!

We are not talking about art here, we are talking about pushing child porn to their limits!!

I just feel sick just thinking some protester just wants to see underage nudity. :X It sickens me and yet thats our world I suppose.

It's a very natural reaction to be repulsed by those with an attraction to underage nudity, but the only rational objection to underage nudity is the concerns of children being unable to give consent. I'm certainly against child pornography, but that's because of that inability to give consent-animated figures have no consciousness to violate so the concept of consent is lost anyway.

Long story short, don't dehumanize people just because they have a fetish for underage individuals. It makes open and meaningful communication harder for everyone.

Yeah well arent we all perverted on some level.
I mean I had sexual fantasies and dreams about girls my own age when I was around ten (and even earlier I think!) some of them involving really wierd...stuff.
Maybe im just messed up I dont know.

I have never heard of this anime and I have no interest in it whatsoever, but I've got some strong feelings on this subject. No, I'm not really into the whole loli deal, but then, I'm not into a lot of things. Does that make them bad? Does that make them immoral? No, not at all. I have no right to impose my beliefs on others...

That doesn't mean that it's, say, okay to have child pornography. The thing is, though, these "children" (quotations due to the character apparently being a hundreds year old vampire) aren't real. This is a victimless "crime." This sort of thing really shouldn't be an issue at all. In this case, it's just a story, not explicit, flat out porno. But, in the case of actual porn like this, it's much better to give a person attracted to underage boys or girls an option. Would you rather have them trying to hunt down actual pictures of a poor, exploited child? Or would you want them to just look at a simulated picture of a character that DOESN'T EXIST? This is really a silly argument...

I'd rather not get into the really messy issue of drawn child pornography, so just a thought:


Maybe Funimation should choose more carefully what titles they import? If you pride yourself in bringing uncut material, don't license material that you'll be forced to cut.

I think this whole episode is more a sign of Funimation not bothering to do their homework and licensing based on trends (As Marzgurl states at the beginning of her editorial) and then having to patch up their mistake, than of them being unfaithful to their purpose.

So the suggestion of not buying this product is sound, maybe Funimation will learn and review potential candidates for licensing next time.


(Please note that I'm not an US resident nor do I have any knowledge whatsoever of Funimation or the Anime scene around there, mine is just an "outsider" opinion)