Angry Specials - Superman vs Batman: Final Debate

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  • Steve Potter
    Superman CAN beat Batman, yes, but that's one of the reasons I don't like him that much. It's just kind of annoying.

    I didn't like Superman that much until I saw the first movie. I don't think I'll ever love him, but I do appreciate him a lot more.
  • AngryJoeShow
    I hope the Man of Steel movie is good enough to change your mind! =)
  • Steve Potter
    Fingers crossed!

    Also, I just remembered that I watched "Superman: Doomsday" a long time ago (I think it was Doomsday...) and I remember *SPOILER* Lex Luthor draining a clone's power by some weird... red sunlight... room... thing. Couldn't Batman do that? Granted, that could only work if they had a fight at like... the Batcave. BUT... it COULD happen, right?
  • gojirafan430
    Superman is fast enough to fly across galaxies in secodns and can carry stars

    The only way batman could beat Superman is with massive amount of prep time

    that is made very clear in the comics and Batman and Supes has mentioned this several times in each of the pre and post crisis era of the comics
  • redjirachi
    Superman is the hero you strive to be like, Batman is the hero you could be like.
  • Sewblon
    Batman has a genius IQ and the resources of one of the world's largest corporate empires. Most people cannot be like Batman in any but the loosest sense.
  • Thecrazyone1500
    I know what you mean i always root for the vampire hunter esp characters the ones who know weaknesses, and use them but are personally not hugely strong.
    Man of Steel is coming out , they could fake it.
    With no Gadgets but yeah superman wins but batman could take some heros no
    I also wouldn't say superman is THAT more important to alien threats , superman wins in fight, because he can go faster in faster time, but batman IS really good at plans , and there are others who can come near supes strength, in numbers,

    and hasnt bats come back from death?

    also he wouldnt say hey , i found improvements to gadgets ? that sounds dumb
  • Kallikanzarid
    If Batman beats Superman, it's not going to be in a fair fight.
  • Indigo_Dingo
    They're fighting to the death - screw fair. Ain't no Geneva convention surrounding superheroes. You take whatever advantages you can.

    Fighting with honor will get you killed.
  • HeartBurnKid
    That's why Batman wins -- because Superman fights fair, and Batman doesn't.
  • Swarmcrow
    well, is it fair for a man to fight a god?
  • Sewblon
    No. But at the same time, is it reasonable to argue that a man could beat a god in a one-on-one fight?
  • Mike Mars
    Of course Superman can beat Batman. It's like a mortal going against an Olympian God. That's the point of it though. Batman doesn't have to win the fight to win the battle. Whenever Batman is paired up against someone with such eminence and colossal strength like Superman, his goal isn't necessarily to win, but to humble them.

    Look at The Dark Knight Returns, Batman didn't really win that fight, but he made Superman feel what it was like to be mortal, to bleed, to know what it is like to face a true physical challenge.

    That is what Batman is about, showing these Gods among men that humans are not something to be underestimated.
  • hsrw101
    What's funnier is that the purpose of the Dark Knight Returns was that both heroes were used as a deconstruction of the superhero genre. As Superman was made as someone who goes by the rules and gives in to authority. (Frank Miller's idea, after all, this is the guy who's responsible for so many memes and ruining his own image) And Batman was used to represent vigilantism who gets the job done, but can be more dangerous than originally thought. At least when listening to behind the scenes of the movie adaptation, Bruce Timm wanted to make it where Superman still has the upper hand, but both of them didn't want to fight but the government (Miller's commentary on Reagan) is forcing them to.

    Besides, I'm sure you can agree that at least we don't have Superman from #701 from the "Grounded" storyline. You as a Superman fan Joe, would be PISSED.
  • ahak
    The idea that superman needs humbling is just ridiculous. Like Linkara said in one of his videos, superman sees human as his equal, you can even argue he puts human above himself as he always risks his life to protect anyone and everyone. Just because superman is stronger than human doesn't mean he has never faced challenges. Many of superman's enemies are more than a match for him physically. He takes on the biggest challenges because he knows only he can do it.
  • postafflatus  - Agree for the most part...
    Nice video Joe :) I am bigger fan of Batman than Superman however I have to agree with you on almost every level :) Only thing I can't agree with is ''friends never fight'' - bullshit. Only through the harshest of times and sometimes even through a fight the friendship of two can truly be tested and if friendship prevails then it only grows stronger.

    On the other note, I am not that big of a superman fan because he's a difficult character to write good stories for and just like you said, its easier to identify with someone like Batman because we are obviously human just like him, supe - hes a f*ckn' alien with god-like powers. On the other hand if you look deeper into superman's case as an analogy of a brilliantly talented person from another country trying to make a life for himself and the world around him a better place not just for him but for everyone else, however constantly being stomped on by bigger more powerful people, organizations, just because they don't like his approach out of spite or else. People like him probably would feel often criminally unappreciated, like what probably superman sometimes feels like. I appreciate superman for what he is, but I wouldn't glorify him either.
  • Sliced Ice
    Nice video! I voted for Superman!
  • Juicewski
    This is ridiculous, they are literally from diffrent planets. Another one is godlike being and another one is a human being. It is like comparing old mustang to pagani zonda, mustang looks awesome, sounds awesome and feels awesome but there ain't any chance that the mustang wins zonda in quarter mile race. If people want to compare superheroes, they should compare similar heroes like superman vs silver surfer vs super goofy or spawn vs hellboy.
  • JavaJoe  - I agree, sorta.
    In a straight up fight Superman would win and this is coming from a huge Batman fan. Superman is simply too strong and too powerful for Batman to beat.

    However, Batman is the guy that literally has a plan for everybody including Supes. He carries kryptonite around in his utility belt just in case. And you know that if he ever felt Superman was going rogue he'd implement a plan to stop him.
  • Sewblon
    I like Batman's output better than Superman's overall, especially including material outside of the comic books themselves. But as far as superheros go, Batman is actually pretty weak in terms of both raw power and practical fighting prowess, because he is human, and most superheroes have abilities beyond that of human beings, hence the adjective "super." So Superman would win if it came down to a fair fight.
  • ShadOBabe
    So I really love Superman, Joe. Even if Batman is my favorite Superhero. I try to defend Superman against my friends.

    But you said Superman is not OP. But everything you just said pretty much confirms that he sort of is.
    Him being OP doesn't really bother me for the fact that he is an alien and I kind of look at him with different eyes than I would other characters.

    I love Superman. But I'd like some advice on how to defend him as a good character when he is pretty much unbeatable. What are his flaws? What are his faults?

    He's pretty hard to defend. Like I said I personally don't care. I see him as a symbol of hope and idealism in a very jaded world. But most people do care. How do I explain that Superman isn't a Gary Stu?
  • Sewblon
    I think that the main reason Superman does not need to be a Gary Stu, is his ethics that forbid him from killing people. Here on earth, he has to hold back and never really use his full power, but his enemies do not have to hold back. When Superman is fighting cosmic level threats, like Darksied or The Anti-Monitor for example, he does not need to hold back, but that is only because his advantage is either gone or greatly diminished.See the "World of Cardboard" speech from Justice League Unlimited. Also, Superman is not unbeatable in the strictest sense, he died fighting Doomsday in the pre-relaunch continuity, and in the new Action Comics number 1 if the New 52, Lex Luthor knocked him out with a bullet train, which is earth-level technology.
  • ShadOBabe
    Yeah, but Joe just said that Supes can come back from the dead.

    My friends will be all, "So he's super moral and nice, and almost everyone on Earth loves him, and according to Joe the one weakness he had, Kryptonite, he can actually shrug off, AND he can come back from the dead?"

    I love you Superman, but you are a really hard character to defend from the Gary Stu label.
  • Sewblon
    I see your point, but Superman is not the only superhero who can come back from the dead. Jason Todd, the second Robin, who never had any special powers and was never really a hero in his own right, came back from the dead in the pre-relaunch DC universe.
  • ShadOBabe
    Jason didn't come back from the dead by his own volition. He was resurrected. If I'm understanding Joe correctly, Supes just does it on his own.
  • Sewblon
    I am pretty sure that Joe is referring to the "Return of Superman" storyline. This is just from Wikipedia and I have not read the Return of Superman myself so I could be wrong. But the summary says that Superman did not come back from the dead of his own volition, a different character put his corpse in a device called a regeneration matrix which revived him. wiki/ The_Death_of_Superman#Rei gn_of_the_Supermen.21
  • alexalcan  - Is this an issue?
    Wow, I must be so old. This "discussion" is completely new to me. How can it be possible for anyone to imagine batman could ever defeat superman?
    I am a huge batman fan, and also tend to dislike superman for all the typical reasons. That's precisely why it's a no-brainer.
    a)Batman moves a muscle
    b) Superman punches at super-speeds, sends him flying into space.
    c) The end.
  • 2centschange  - You lost the argument before you even started Joe.
    Ok, I listened to the whole show and you have some valid points, but as a 'debate' you lose. You state at the beginning that you wanted this to be fair discussion...

    You then proceed to portray the imaginary people you're debating against as snarling growling idiots.

    If you had of recorded this, simply raising your points civilly, you would have had a pretty good case. But the way you've actually done it, it just screens supes fanboy, and like you, I'm writing the whole thing off as pointless.

    Besides, wonder woman beats either.
  • AngryJoeShow
    Points still stand, even if I was talking to batman fans who declare he wins just because he's batman.
  • 2centschange
    Not really, since most of your points are defeated by your premise. The claim that Superman is not OP at the beginning, and then later claiming he could take out batman from orbit or go to the sun during the fight is kinda the definition of over powered. Hell, since you kept using the 'in canon' tag so much 'in canon' superman is so powerful he can actually grant himself any super power he wants on a whim just by believing he can do it. Remember mutli-colored copies superman? I could go on.

    Anyway, the argument of who wins in a fight is largely pointless. Yes, supes will win 99 times out a 100, because as has been said he's pretty much the most powerful being in the DC universe.

    However, the purpose of this video, as I tried to point out in my original comment is not to argue superman's superiority, but to antagonize batman fans. Hell, including the 'batman gets beaten by a clown' comment is kinda cheeky because supes was beaten by the joker twice, cleanly, before too. There's a reason why even Lex, having the ego he does, hates working with joker. Because joker even tends to show him up.
  • Eyeshot
    Batman can find Elizabeth from Bioshock Infinite and have her tear Superman into a million pieces. End of story.
  • Sewblon
    Batman and Elizabeth are not from the same universe. Saying that Batman can secure help from other universes makes this entire discussion pointless because then he can basically beat anyone who cannot secure help from other universes.
  • SuperNerd137
    It's not a review, but I'll gladly take any Angry Joe we can get. I haven't payed much attention to this contest so far, but dang it, Superman's got this fight in the bag. The popularity contest on the other hand...well...let's see if the Angry Army can prevail.
  • Chewie
    Thanks, Joe. If it weren't for this video, I wouldn't have known even how to vote. I agree with you, and added +1 for Superman. :) Good Luck
  • jrrjoshu  - Look up in the Sky!
    Although I like Batman more than Superman, Superman has some Awesome thing going for him. I usually judge Superman Shows or Movie bast off of how it is compared to the Max Fleischer's animated shorts from the 1940's. Now if this game included other pop culture characters in it, then Popeye would be the Winner.
  • Greycat R!
    I'm a Batman fan and he's my 2nd favorite DC hero (1st being Hal Jordan) but I fully agree with all your points there.

    Also I think they'd both back off from the fight (only Batman without a word).

    If I'd had to give a reason why I like Bats better is shitty writing. I've encountered lots of comic overhyping both of them, but less of that involved Batman.
  • TheDogSannin
    Honestly, Superman doesn't need prep to beat Batman. He doesn't even have to be anywhere near Batman to win.

    The guy simply has to use his heat vision from a fair distance away and atomize the Batman.
  • patlefort
    Superman is simply OP. he is always as strong as he needs to be. If we add up everything that's been written about superman, he fits the description of being god. Superman is about how to use your powers. Batman is something else completely.

    Not even Goku can win :( watch?v=oyl97TG8jbA
  • hsrw101
    Its all about the writers. Some see Superman as being powerful but still human and using his smarts and wits. While some see him as Jesus in tights who preach to others. While Frank Miller sees him as a tool.
  • TheBlitzkrieg  - Superman isn't the only "OP" character in this deb
    *ahem* And yet Batman has no powers and suddenly he can suddenly beat every being in the universe? I don't think so. He's about as unrelatable is Superman is, but on a different level. He's human, sure, but he also has decades of psychological trauma done to him and has a bazillion dollars and every action that he did to spend time amongst the common man is undone by his "mission to eradicate crime". Everything he did was for something far bigger than his mortal coil.

    Clark Kent on the other hand is a simple farmboy with amazing gifts who happened to graduate with a degree in journalism who can never quite seem to get the girl until he showed her what he really was. Much more relatable to a "common" man.


    Batman is a rich 1%er with daddy issues.

    and Superman is an Alien.
  • nickyprules
    Check out Irredeemable for Mark Waid's take on what would happen if a Superman type character went evil. It's super creepy.
  • Monster_user  - Superman vs Kryptonite
    After seeing Kryptonite vary so widely, I began to assume that Supes just was playing along for whatever reason.

    Logically speaking, if you were as powerful as Superman, and you were sure that humans would fear you, and challenge you, wouldn't you opt to manufacture a weakness?

    Kryptonite is a substance that radiates energy, and something not found on Earth naturally. This makes it easier to detect (feel it), and makes it a believable weakness (unlike "water").

    As it stands, I propose that it is entirely possible that Magic is Superman's only weakness, and the "fly by the sun" shtick is only a clever part of the Kryptonite cover up for when Supes needs to bend the rule a bit.
  • Epockismet  - I could not allow this injustice to stand XP
    We might not be able to save the world, but goddammit, Superman is going to win this match!! ;P
  • thorondragon
    to quote both linkara and superman himself, Your no nonsense attitude holds no water in a world of jet powered apes.

    if there was a situation where superman went batshit, he would not survive the encounter with batman. the only reason why your scenario would work is if batman did not intend to kill superman. he is perhaps the only person on earth with the understanding of superman, and his weaknesses, combined with the resources needed, to kill superman.

    the scenario you always give is superman and batman directly fighting, but that is not how it would go down. batman is smart enough not to directly fight superman. he would create a scenario if he learned superman had gone rogue that would lead to superman's defeat or death. hell he would probably use the fact superman can obliterate him in a single blow to his advantage too. the punch superman uses to kill him getting him close enough for, per say, a heavily kryptonite lased toxin batman injected into his body before the encounter to get of superman, poisoning him and killing him.
    even more likely is that he would get other super heros involved. like entrigan the demon, who as a dmeon could match, for a time, superman's strength even if he was batshit. and would be immune to a gas variation of that kyrptonite laced toxin, being of the dmeonic realm as said.

    that is the main thing about it all. if a scenario like superman going batshit could, which i dbout, go down, batman would ensure ssuperman's death even at the cost of his own life. batman is just the smarter man here, and knows superman far too well to fail. though the point here is that batman would likely ensure he died during the situation, as he would be going against his most sacred code, and him dying as well would be the only option in his mind.

    though my question is why even compare it? batman would not let a scenario like that play to begin with. besides, there are several other heroes fully able to kill superman, perhaps in an instant if prepared. martian manhunter could reduce superman into a vegetable from a distance. and wonderwoman is a maiden born of magic, trained in martial combat and thus a far superior warrior to superman, has enough super power ot withstand him in a murderous state, and has access to magical weapons as well. technically speaking, she could end a roge superman with a twist of her body, and a magical dagger made by hephestus through superman's heart.
    this are all factors of bypasing hsi super abiltiies, something batman has become an expert of. note that in frank miller's work, batman was not trying to kill superman.
  • TheBlitzkrieg  - Objection.
    Lex Luthor is FAR smarter than Batman, has an ego on par with the Dark Knight, and ROUTINELY pisses off the Man of Steel and leads him into deathtraps. Some FAR more clever than anything Batman can even HOPE to achieve. And yet not only does Superman OVERCOME these odds, what happens to Lex?

    "PLEASE DON'T KILL ME! I'M SORRY! *pisses himself*"

    and the only thing that stops Superman? His friends and loved ones. Superman/Batman Public Enemies is arguably the finest example of this.

    Batman may be smart enough not to antagonize Superman, but if he DID (which is easily what Joe implied) GAME OVER. Even BATMAN (and you really going to argue with your supposed savior?) admits "if he wanted to (which when you're pissed means he WILL), he could use his superspeed and crush me into paste!" which means all your prep, all your gadgets, toss all the Kryptonite at him you can muster. Superman pissed off makes the Dark Knight crap his pants.

    Also, half your plan for Batman winning implies the plans, oh I dunno, GO ACCORDING TO PLAN, and ALSO imply he needs HELP FROM OTHER PEOPLE. What was the implication? NO HELP FROM OTHER PEOPLE!
  • stochastic
    While this has already been pointed out as WRONG, Lex Luthor's ego and standing in society is a BIG weakness. Also, Batman is physically a greater adversary. Lex needs a robot to fight Supes.
  • Jadespartan058  - Agreed
    I found a few things in your video pretty interesting, I agree strait away that Batman is SOL in any actual fight between the two of them regardless of any plan or gadget, they are just too unmatched. The thing I found most interesting was your argument that Supes isnt OP because of the foes that he fights, and I actually really liked that. So, he is OP for Bats, he isnt OP for Darkseid, makes sense.
    I think where the characters really diverge is the scale of the threats they deal with. Batman never has to deal with really world threatening issues, at least, not solo; where as Superman deals with that like every other Thursday. So comparing them and asking who would win is kinda like asking who would win between a crack SWAT Team, and the entire United States Army.
    There are times when Batman "wins" against Superman, however these are never physical victories or even mental ones, they are completing an objective that isnt beating the living daylights out of The Man of Steel. Sometimes, victory isnt killing the guy, its maneuvering around them. So, in conclusion, in a fight, Batman is owned, in a operation that requires Superman to do a certain thing, Batman can usually make that happen.

    Also, if you havent read the Superman/Batman where they watch two kids debating how the fight would go you really should, its fantastic. Also, Voted Supes.
  • stochastic
    Batman has a different agenda. Only he understands Gotham and only he can fix it.

    Fact is, if Batman wanted to work full time on the JLA he could...which was actually pointed out in the New DCU.

    My point is, it's not entirely fair to say that Batman can't fight on par with bigger threats solo, just because he doesn't. Batman comics (the good ones, at least) have always been more about detective work and "ninjaring".
  • DarkAlkaiser
    Flaws here, Batman would NEVER fight Superman on fair terms, simply wouldn't happen... so making it a fair fight = prep time already makes it illogical.

    Also, you point out that the cryptonite working differently being bad writing, I agree... but so are his completely ridiculous modern power list XD Super thought, not needing to breath anymore, and absorbing sunlight to the point of being immune to his only weakness are just terrible writing.

    I love both characters, but them fighting would only ever happen in a circumstance where batman had an advantage, or it would simply not be a fight.

    It would have to be Superman is evil, again, and just kills him long range with heat vision, or superman capturing him instantly without warning, anything else, batman is hiding, til he's ready, and superman is unprepared, this is simply the nature of the two characters, anything else, is just not realistic. Who would win, I don't really care XD Both characters are great, but the argument here is flawed by the nature of the characters.
  • Swarmcrow
    again with the dumb fan boy questions...

    of course batman can beat superman, you know why?! because is a FREAKING STORY, whatever batman can beat superman or not is upon the guy writing the comic not some sort of universal fact.. cause again if the writers wants batman to win then batman is going to win, and the whole canon that fanboys use to defend their arguments it full of contradictions and holes..

    there real question should be , Can an specific version of batman beat a specific version of superman in a realistic way? and yes the how?
  • VampireOctopus  - Close, but ...
    Nice work, Joe. I'm glad that you recognize that Batman's more popular, but still side with our boy in blue since that's what makes sense.

    However, the point you made about Superman cheating death can't really be counted because it was a one time thing. After coming back to life at the end of the Reign of the Supermen storyline, the Phantom Stranger explains that everything worked out just right for him to return to life, but that circumstances would never line up like that ever again. If this has been retconned in the New 52 - I stopped reading comics back in 2006 - then the point may stand, but it seemed like you were only referencing the fight with Doomsday.

    On a side note, right after Luthor became President, Supes and Bats tricked him into give up his old kryptonite ring by having Kal brace himself and pretend to not feel anything when near the ring and faking a reaction when near a duplicate. So, your explanation that Superman would have a least one chance to get a hit in is totally valid.
  • SilverFoxR  - The only reason you need...
    You know, you don't really need a numerical list explaining why Superman could beat Batman in a fight... you only need one reason:

    Superman is designed as the ultimate Marty Stu.

    Sounds insulting, but in reality, it's pretty accurate. He can beat any entity ever created, because he has an ability that allows him to win... and if he doesn't have one, he'll suddenly obtain one so he can. DC has even said, straight out that "Superman is as strong as he needs to be." Joe breaking down every possibility that Batman could use to win pretty much can be summarized as "Superman has weaknesses, but can subvert them pretty much anytime he requires.", meaning he can just decide to ignore his weaknesses or do something to elminate the possibility of them working.

    Simply put, Superman wins, because he's designed to always win. I mean, dude can vibrate his body at will to such a speed, he can phase-shift through solid matter one instant, then use the same technique to hyper-punch someone with enough force to blow up a planet. That alone makes him unbelievably overpowered.

    It's honestly why I'm not so much of a fan of the guy... it makes him boring. Sure, there are ways writers can have him lose, but if he loses, he's not really using his full potential... because if he is, he shouldn't be able to lose.

    I prefer Batman as a hero, because, other than his great intelligence and resources, he's just another person. He can lose and has on multiple occasions, even to normal people. He's vulnerable, but still finds ways to rise up and continue even if left broken and beaten within an inch of his life.
  • Alpha_Squad
    I absolutely agree with this.
  • stochastic
    One could take that to include Superman NOT being strong enough to win some fights as "doing what he needs to do to keep DC entertaining." =)
  • Snowy_One
    I agree with this video. It's nice to see someone with some actual sense talking about this for once instead of a Batman fan screaming 'with enough prep-time!' The only grounds that they're willing to even talk on are grounds in which Batman has a ton of advantages and Superman is just a mindless puncher and dope. So, good to see a more accurate review, and I will be voting for Superman.
  • Sperber
    I too believe that Superman is an OP character. But, and I can't stress this enough, but I don't believe this to be a bad thing. As Mike Mars mentioned in his comment Superman is a God among men and I truly believe that there is a place for such a character in the world of comic books.

    Actually I kind of dislike kryptonite. It's deux ex machina. A plot convenience whenever the story needs Superman to be vulnerable and fragile.

    ShadOBabe asked "But I'd like some advice on how to defend him as a good character when he is pretty much unbeatable. What are his flaws? What are his faults?"

    I hope Man of Steel will give us an answer. After all the filmmakers said that they won't include kryptonite into the movie. Great for me. Thanks. They go on and say:

    "Once on Earth, his adoptive parents, Ma and Pa Kent (Kevin Costner and Diane Lane), urge him not to use his immense strength – even in dire emergencies — warning that not every human would be as accepting of him as they are. So Clark Kent grows up feeling isolated, longing for a connection to others, and constantly hiding who he is. As a result, Man of Steel presents the frustrated Superman, the angry Superman, the lost Superman. “Although he is not susceptible to the frailties of mankind, he is definitely susceptible to the emotional frailties,” Cavill says."

    I believe this to be the perfect answer to ShadOBabe's question. Superman is not only an alien by nature. Even though he was raised by human parents he is an alienated person. An outsider. He always felt that he doesn't fit in and he doesn't! This is his real weak spot. This is something that can be exploited by any enemy, be that Darkseid, Lex Luthor or Batman.
    I hope Man of Steel can pull this off.

    So, yes. Superman is OP but not without his flaws and weaknesses. Now to the question at hand. Would Batman win in a fight? No. Could he win? Yes. Bruce Wayne has the intelligence, ingenuity and ressources to come up with a plan and technical devices to deliver a fatal attack. With kryptonite of course. But that would mean he has to make plans and set the trap. He always has to keep this special equipment with him all the time. If he doesn't have it, Batman doesn't stand a chance.

    So my verdict says: given enough time to plan and make preparations Batman will most likely win. Otherwise Superman will mop the floor with his cape.
  • jz1337
    1. If it were a truly even fight. it would take place without the yellow sun that gives superman his powers wouldn't it? And batman would have no gadgets.

    2. Beating Lex Luthor doesn't make you smarter than him. And Lex has his own weaknesses. Superman's "super intelligence" doesn't seem very prevalent these days especially in stuff like DCAU.

    3. Kryptonite varies in it's strength more than you implied.

    4. Superman's powers also vary a lot. A lot of batfans are basing their belief off DCAU likely where Superman is not nearly as powerful
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